David “TC” Ellis:
All the kids are congregating at my recording studio because they want me to let them in and let them rap. And in the beginning, I was blowing them off. I was like, “I’m busy” or “I got clients”, or whatever. And so, they called me out one day. They said, “See, you said you had clients at 2:00, it’s 2:30. We could have made a hit.” And so, I brought them into the studio, threw the beats up, and they just went off. I couldn’t believe how prolific they were and the things that they were writing, and how they were able to type something in their phone and go up and get on the mic and start spitting it right away. As time went on, I was like, “How come you guys ain’t at school? You’re here every day.” And they’re like, “Man, F school”. They’re like, “I got kicked out. They don’t want me there. I don’t want to be there.” They just wanted to learn about the music.

Alec Patton:
This is High Tech High Unboxed. I’m Alec Patton, and today it is my great pleasure to introduce a guest episode from the Hip Hop Genius Podcast. This episode is a live recording from the 2022 Deeper Learning Conference of an interview with David “TC” Ellis, who, as a rapper, is best known for his work with Prince, and as an educator, is best known as the founder of the High School for Recording Arts in Saint Paul, Minnesota. And with that, I’m going to get out of the way and let the episode play.

Michael Lipset:
Check. In 2011, Sam Seidel published what has become a foundational book in the field of hip hop based education called Hip Hop Genius: Remixing High School Education.

sam seidel:
If you know, you know. Pick up a copy and support the school.

Michael Lipset:
The book, available at hiphopgenius.org, covers the story of The High School for Recording Arts, founded by David “TC” Ellis.

David “TC” Ellis:
T.C. Twin Cities, you all. Minneapolis, Saint Paul. Don’t miss out. Hip Hop Genius. Get the book.

Michael Lipset:
The book also details how the hip hop generation sparked a global movement with limited resources by flipping something out of nothing. Now, 10 years later, Sam has been joined by me, Michael Lipset, Director of Social Impact at 4 Learning, and Tony Simmons, Executive Director at the High School for Recording Arts.

Tony Simmons:
Our goal is to get students mad enough to learn more, and smart enough to get it in a whole different way.

Michael Lipset:
Together, the three of us are bringing you Hip Hop Genius 2.0, the second edition of that pivotal book, along with a podcast series where we put legendary musicians and educators together in conversation to discuss the state of the field. On this episode, we’ll be chatting with none other than the man himself, the founder of the High School for Recording Arts, David “TC” Ellis, live at the 2022 San Diego Deeper Learning Conference. We hope you enjoy the conversation, and thanks for joining us on the Hip Hop Genius Podcast. Check one, check two.

David “TC” Ellis:
Check. Testing one, two.

sam seidel:
Thank you, Michelle.

David “TC” Ellis:
Test.

sam seidel:
There’s a little correction. We have one guest and three moderators because this guest needs that much moderation.

David “TC” Ellis:
Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

sam seidel:
He deserves that much hype-

Michael Lipset:
Is really-

sam seidel:
And that he needs three hype men. Thank you all for being here with us. How’s everybody doing?

David “TC” Ellis:
Test.

sam seidel:
Did everyone at least get up and stretch between the last… No? All right. Give me a little something, just… All right. So I just want to explain what you’ve just walked into, or for those of you who have been sitting here for a while, what you’ve transitioned into. This is a den at a conference called Deeper Learning. We good on that? Yeah. Okay, facts. And also it’s a live recording of a podcast. That’s actually, I think two podcasts simultaneously.

Michael Lipset:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

David “TC” Ellis:
Sweet.

sam seidel:
So it’s a High Tech High-

Michael Lipset:
Unboxed.

sam seidel:
Unboxed Graduate School of Education podcast, which is really exciting. And it’s also a Hip Hop Genius podcast recording, which is really exciting, as Corey has let us know. Let’s hit it with the Corey [inaudible 00:04:24]. And we’re just really glad to have you all here with us, and you’re going to be helping to create, as Michelle was just explaining half the content here because we’re going to talk a bit and then we’re going to open it up. But we really want your questions to inform the second half. The only piece I want to explain up front is this is part of a series of podcasts, thinking of it as a limited edition. 10 years ago I wrote a book called Hip Hop Genius Remixing High School Education.

Michael Lipset:
Oh, that’s what I’m talking about.

sam seidel:
Featuring the work of my colleagues on stage. And 10 years later, I got to revisit that. The vision had always been to write a book collaboratively, but the first time around, a lot of the key clicking fell on me. So that was my version of it. But we got to come back at it 10 years later and reopen the story and talk about what had happened in the 10 years in between and just share a whole bunch more information around it. All three of my fellow folks on stage, and we’ll introduce each other I think in a moment, played a role and wrote, and you’ll see all their names on the cover. We’re going to have some books available for sale and signing at the end here. Part of what we decided to do when we put out this 10 year anniversary edition with the book, besides adding a hundred new pages of content, was to start creating some other pieces around it to try to get the message into the world and some new ways.
So one of those ways is to do this podcast. The first episode was recorded two or three weeks ago in Austin, Texas at South by Southwest EDU. And featured a colleague and longtime supporter of Hip Genius Martha Diaz, who founded the Hiphop Education Center. Trying to get that by the mic. As well as DMC from a small independent rap group you probably haven’t heard of called Run DMC. It was incredible. It’s on all the podcast platforms. I highly recommend you check it out. Today, we’re recording the second episode with you all. The concept was like Martha, an education expert and DMC, a hip hop legend. Each episode we would bring together education expert and a hip hop legend. This episode, we’ve brought that together in one person, David “TC” Ellis, so we don’t need another guest because the man is both a music legend and an education legend. So we’re just excited to get into it. With that, I’ll pass it off, and when you listen to this podcast later and are telling everyone I was there when that was recorded, you’ll hear a really beautiful intro recorded by Michael.

Michael Lipset:
That’s right. So the intros will create some sort of connection between episodes, but today we wanted to do something unique because we’re all here, we all know each other relatively well. We thought we would introduce each other as opposed to allowing each of us to introduce ourselves independently and do so through the lens of this question, which is, when did you know this person was serious about hip hop? And I’m going to invite Tony to first introduce Sam.

Tony Simmons:
Ooh. So I ask Sam that?

Michael Lipset:
No, you tell us when you… And you can tell it’s-

Tony Simmons:
Got it. Got it.

Michael Lipset:
We’re quite prepared.

Tony Simmons:
Got it, got it, got it.

Michael Lipset:
When did you first know Sam was serious about hip hop?

Tony Simmons:
When Sam decided to move to cold ass Minnesota for a year and a half to embed himself at High School for Recording Arts, to really give him all of the knowledge and information and experiences to write the book Hip Hop Genius. And I think you had a few 20 below degree days in Minnesota. So that was hip hop because you didn’t let any of that stand in the way. But on top of that, you came into that space with such a genuine, open, flowing, improvisational, just love and respect for who our young people were, their stories, their right to really be expressive in terms of who they were culturally. And you just blended in. You were part of that community. And nobody wondered, who’s this little Jewish white guy hanging out in our school that’s 95% African American. Nobody thought about that. You were just that guy that was just there, just connecting and really told their stories beautifully. So that’s when I knew you were hip hop.

Michael Lipset:
And Sam, you were invited to introduce me.

sam seidel:
Oh, okay. Nice. Yes. Well, so two things come to mind. First of all, thank you, Tony. That was lovely to hear that, those memories of some really good times we had out there together. Michael, two things come to mind. So one is, I don’t even know how many years ago this was, it was before I knew you super well, but I knew you. I knew you as a education guy, you were working with these guys a little bit at that time, very early stages. And I think you were a graduate student at Harvard Graduate School of Education at the time. And you arranged at HSRA visit to Harvard for a week and you all were producing songs with people there. And my sister-in-law came to your workshop and she sings and she was really proud of this song that was created and she played it for me. And the song was amazing. I think Bishop had made the beat and it was just a great song.
So she’s singing, it’s beautiful. Somebody starts spitting. And I was like, “Who is that?” And she was like, “That’s Michael.” I was like, “Michael, who?” She was like, “I don’t know his last name. The tall, skinny white guy.” I was like, “That’s Michael?” I had no idea that you spit like that. So that was one thing that I was like, “Oh, he’s a problem.” And then the other story, which is much more recent, I already knew, but in case anyone here did not know, these guys were up for a major education award and they were down at a conference. They had to present and do a… How many minute? Five minute pitch?

Michael Lipset:
Three.

sam seidel:
Three minute pitch. And this crew is there. This guy gets up and does the whole three minutes in rhyme and they got the bag. So I knew you were serious.

Michael Lipset:
Appreciate that. Thank you. Man, that song that we did out at Hugzee. That was something, you’re right, that nice throwback. So I get to introduce you, Tony. Which means you’ll then have the pleasure of introducing the man himself. But before we get there, the moment I knew you were serious, we were on a call with a new addition to the team at High School for Recording Arts, waiting for someone else to join the call. And we were just spitballing throwing stuff around, bantering, whatever. When Tony volunteers that he was there the day hip hop was created. And of course I’m like, “No, you weren’t. Come on.” This is not something I find out in small talk on a Zoom call randomly, right? I should have known that you were there the night hip hop was born. And he was like, “No, for real.” I was like, “You’re making it up.” He’s like, “No. I was in the club. Grandmaster Flash. It all went down.”
And so the fact that you were not only willing to claim that, but then able to defend it.

Tony Simmons:
Defend it, right.

Michael Lipset:
Right.

sam seidel:
I thought it was a basement, Tony. Wasn’t it somebody’s basement?

Michael Lipset:
It was a basement.

Tony Simmons:
It was a basement.

sam seidel:
You can see he’s told the story a few times, right?

David “TC” Ellis:
With the plugin stereo.

Michael Lipset:
Exactly.

David “TC” Ellis:
One of his friends got the stereo where he can plug the mic in.

Tony Simmons:
For over 20 years of HSRA history, every student knows this story. They have to sit and hear it.

Michael Lipset:
And I’ve been working with you for four or five years and I never heard it, but that’s how hip hop you are. You can come out of the pocket with a story like that after years of knowing somebody. And I already knew you were hip hop and I didn’t even know that. So, Tony Simmons.

Tony Simmons:
Right.

David “TC” Ellis:
Yeah. Tony, Tony.

Tony Simmons:
Thank you. Thank you. So now, David, in terms of-

Michael Lipset:
You intro David.

Tony Simmons:
Okay, so how I knew David was hip-

Michael Lipset:
How did you know David “TC” Ellis was serious about hip hop?

Tony Simmons:
I’m going to take it all the way back to Bally’s Casino in Atlantic City, New Jersey, mid 1990s. I was practicing law in New York representing some hip hop artists. And a good friend of mine and fraternity brother, Kevin Chico Gibbs was giving me clients. He was at a record label and he said, “Tony, you need to come down to this music conference impact in Atlantic City.” And I’m like, “Man, I didn’t feel like driving down Jersey Turnpike and Carter State Parkway going down there.” He was like, “No, dude, you need to come.” Little did I know it was going to change my life. I get there and it’s just a sea of up and coming artists before anyone knew, Boyz II Men, SWV, there was these little guys just walking around. And then I sat at a table. It was Chuck D, Maureen Singleton who was the founder of SWV, somebody else, and TC Ellis. I had no idea who he was, but I’m sitting next to him.
So we’re all talking, we’re drinking, we’re at the bar, everything, everything. And eventually he’s asking me who I am, why I’m there. I tell him so. Then I said, “So who are you?” He said, “I’m TC Ellis, Minneapolis, Saint Paul. I was like, “Okay.” I said, “Well, why here?” He said, “Well, I just put out a album and True Confessions and I’m promoting it. And I grew up with Prince.” And he started talking. When he said in the mid-90s that he grew up with Prince and he was signed to Prince label. All I saw was his lips moving at that point.

David “TC” Ellis:
Wow.

Tony Simmons:
I was like, “What? You grew up with Prince?” Then he just started… Because David’s an incredible storyteller. He started telling me how after grow… Growing up with Prince and then Prince blowing up and becoming this major superstar, how he used to bug Prince to let him rap with his band. And the story was just freaking incredible was so freaking hip hop, he was just relentless. He was just set on bugging Prince to the point where Prince had no other choice but to let this man join his band and rap for him. And that was the moment I knew that TC Ellis was hip hop. And ever since then, every single day that we’ve worked together is reaffirmed. David “TC” Ellis.

David “TC” Ellis:
Real. Thanks. Thanks. Thank you. I’m David “TC” Ellis, and I just want to thank my higher power for letting me collaborate with these guys. Sam, he came to Minnesota like Tony said, for a year and a half or so, and he became part of my family and it was an amazing ride. And I love him like a brother. Michael Lipset, I call him bossy. But you got to check out his pitch was dope. It was amazing what he did in Texas. And Tony is my brother from another mother, no question of the doubt. I nicknamed him Pretty Boy. And I used to go to New York and visit and stay with him, and he would actually go out on dates and leave me at his house with his mom.
But his mom, she taught me well. She schooled me one day I was hanging out and she turned me onto this movie called Spook that sat by the side of the door. And it just blew me away. I had heard about that movie and I had been looking for that movie for a long time, and she had it in her video collection. And this is family for me, really, truly. And that’s our mantra, family, respect, community and education. And I’m really blessed to be here with these young men. I really appreciate you guys a lot.

Michael Lipset:
Appreciate you too.

David “TC” Ellis:
Yeah.

Michael Lipset:
That is so mutual. And none of us would be up here without you TC. And for those of you who know the book, you know that it’s about the High School for Recording Arts, which is really one of a kind school in Saint Paul, Minnesota that was founded by TC. And there’s so much that’s unique about the school, but what is, I think, one of the most important elements is it’s origin story. And so TC, I wonder if you could take us back again. 1990.

David “TC” Ellis:
Yeah.

Michael Lipset:
Wherever you want to start.

David “TC” Ellis:
Well, I got a little story that’ll take you back to the early days of Prince, and Soft and Wet. See, Prince and I were pretty good friends. We used to ride around in his Datsun 210. One of those days when Prince and I rapped, he said, “I got a plan to put the town on the map.” I said, “Skipper, what’s it going to be?” He said, “T, I’m a star. I’m about to go far.” So that’s where it all started. I grew up with Prince. He’d come over to my house, he was hanging out with my younger sister. She’s a great singer, and she was in his band. And after I got struck with hip hop later on, I mean, we all grew up in the music. I played the drums at church and I love music. And after he did Purple Rain, I was just struck by hip hop.
And so I was constantly, like you said, bugging Prince to let me in. So finally he relented. He gave me a contract with his company, Paisley Park, and I was signed to Warner Brothers, and we were working, we did the movie Graffiti Bridge and things were going along. And so later on, Prince, he got into it with Warner Brothers. Changed his name to the symbol, and he wouldn’t answer or do anything under the name Prince. So finally, Warner Brothers got tired. They cut him. And so when they cut him, of course they cut everybody, so-

sam seidel:
That was hip hop.

David “TC” Ellis:
Yeah, that was hip hop. He wanted his masters basically. And at the time, they wouldn’t give him up. So when we all got cut, I opened a recording studio downtown in Saint Paul, the city that I grew up in. And if you know anything about the Twin Cities, it’s super cold and all the buildings are connected by Skywalks. So all the kids that ditch school or are hanging out, they’re all walking through the skywalk, they’re rapping, they got their pants hanging down, they’re all going at it, right? All the kids are congregating at my recording studio because they want me to let them in and let them rap. And in the beginning I was blowing them off. I was like, “I’m busy” Or, “I got clients” Or whatever. And so they called me out one day, they said, “See, you said you had clients at 2:00, it’s 2:30. We could made a hit.”
And so I bought them into the studio, threw the beats up, and they just went off. I couldn’t believe how prolific they were and the things that they were writing and how they were able to type something in their phone and go up and get on the mic and start spitting it right away. Because I couldn’t do that. I’d have to get the beat, Prince to give me some music, I’d work on it for two or three days, come back to the studio. And so they wanted to know everything I knew about the music industry. And so I would tell them, “Hey, you got to go to the library, get the PA or the SR.” What’s that? Performing art, sound recording. You fill that out, you get your copyright certificate from the Library of Congress. So they were actually doing that. They were going through that process.
And so as time went on, I was like, “How come you guys ain’t at school? You’re here every day.” And they’re like, “Man F School.” They’re like, “I got kicked out. They don’t want me there. I don’t want to be there.” They just wanted to learn about the music. And so that light came on and I realized that was almost like how I was, I got kicked out of all the traditional public, regular schools in my community. I ended up at a school called St. Paul Open School, and it was basically a hippie school with parents who hadn’t made an agreement with the school district. And it was the first charter school ever. And it was in Minnesota, which a lot of you may know the charter movement started in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but this was a precursor to that.
And so as this was happening to me, my old principal who was at Open School, he was opening a new charter school. And just a light came on in my head and I remembered how I struggled with school and I called him up and I said, “I got all these kids hanging at my studio every day. They’re not in school, but they’re genius. I mean, they’re doing publishing and copyright.” And so he said, “I’m going to come over.” He said, “I’ll come over and visit.” And so he came over to check out what was going on, and he said, “This is a good idea.” He said, “I’ll tell you what.” He said, “I’ll borrow you a teacher from our school, and we’ll send them over to the studio in the afternoon and find out where these kids are with reading and writing and what.” And so he enrolled the kids in his school, but he was serving them at my recording studio.
And Tony, who I engaged as an attorney, he was helping me with my business of music publishing and all that. He would fly in once a month and do this business of music class with the kids. And so it was just really bubbling. So we had probably had about 45 or 50 kids on a waiting list after a couple of two or three months. And so Dr. Jennings, he said, “This is a good idea.” He said, “I think we should just go ahead. Let’s apply for an official charter.” And so I was like, “Okay.” So we went ahead with it and we received our official charter from the state of Minnesota. And it just really took off. Everything that I had done in my life prepared me for this life or what I’m doing now. I had been in the music business. I was an entrepreneur. I grew up in the streets. I had an addiction to cocaine.
So everything that my students were bringing to me, I could relate to. And even if they were dealing with parents or somebody that was struggling in life, I could even relate to that. And so we have been going for three years. So time to get review from the education department, and it was crazy because I’m just a rough gruff, straight to the facts. I usually cuss a lot, I’m trying not to today. But I called Tony because Tony was always… I seen, he was finesse, and I was like, hey, he’s a lawyer too. So I said, “Man, you need to come up here and help me with this school. They’re fixing the grind me in to the ground, right?” Because of the review was coming. And so he was like, “Man, I really want to do that.” He had always been telling me how he wanted to do something besides billables at his law firm. He was complaining about that.
So anyway, he moved up. I went to New York, Jersey, we got a van, and he moved to Minneapolis. And from there, boom, boom, boom. We just started making our way. And well, we got 365 kids. But I think more important than that is that the school is a phenomena in itself, in that it has reached and touched so many young people who have become amazing citizens, problem solvers and artists. And I mean, I’m like the proud papa. When I go downtown, all the kids come at me. One of my graduate students, he just produced Ariana Grande’s last album. Another one of my kids signed to all the labels. So I’m just thankful to be here.

sam seidel:
Thank you.

Tony Simmons:
Yeah. Thanks.

Michael Lipset:
That’s right.

sam seidel:
Well, I have plenty of questions I’d like to ask you. I’m sure Tony does. However, I’m getting the signal that it is time to shift into the-

Michael Lipset:
Q and A.

sam seidel:
Q and A portion of our program. So Tony, if you’ve got some stuff, hold it on deck, let’s see.

Tony Simmons:
Sure, sure, sure.

sam seidel:
If there’s some hands from the crowd. But as you all can probably tell, we get to talk and hang out quite a bit. What we don’t get is this element of the conversation. So we’re really excited to hear what’s on your minds. You just got a little taste and some of you may have read the book or been out to the school and know a lot more. Some may be very new to this. But wherever you are in your journey of learning about Sigh school for Recording Arts and Hip Hop Genius, we’d love to hear your questions and we’re going to do our best to answer them in a succinct manner so we can fit in as many as possible.

Michael Lipset:
Here we go.

sam seidel:
For the podcast, do we need to give people a mic or just repeat it. All right. We’re going to repeat your question after you ask it.

Speaker 6:
Give me advice on [inaudible 00:26:38].

sam seidel:
And what’s your role at the Comprehensive High School?

Speaker 6:
I’m a music teacher.

sam seidel:
Okay.

David “TC” Ellis:
Oh, sweet.

sam seidel:
So we got to repeat the question, right? So I’ll do my best and feel free to help me out here. So we got John, who’s a music teacher at a Comprehensive High School. He has students who are not super engaged in most of what’s going on at school, but they light up when they come in his room with a particular passion around rap music and hip hop culture. And he’s wondering how to further engage them within the context that he’s operating in.

David “TC” Ellis:
I just want to say you need to contact Mike Lipset at 4 Learning. There’s an organization that is built to help you engage and interact with those kids.

Tony Simmons:
And I just want to add, going back to the book, Hip Hop Genius is really about how to solve that question. It’s really about how do we understand young people who have a voice, who have a passion, who have something that they’re brilliant at, and create the space and provide the opportunity for that to be seen and heard within our educational system. Why would we not do that? If they’re disengaged in other spaces, but they’re engaged there, it’s really a no-brainer. Chris Emdin, I love this quote from him. He says, “When a young kid is brilliant on a street corner, but falling asleep in class, there’s something wrong with that education system.” So for us, the book is about how do you do that? Through stories, through data, through lessons and creative opportunities for young people. We try to just show an example of what it means to be hip hop. But in the final analysis, it’s just about loving young people, respecting what they bring, and giving them space to be themselves, and finding ways to validate that learning and those experiences.

Michael Lipset:
And not being anybody but yourself, right? Don’t feel the need to force yourself into whatever the hip hop thing is that you think they want. They know what they want, and they’ll bring that into the space. And so if we can as educators curate and hold that space in a healthy way, the students will do the rest. But also we got to fight for that space and bum rush that space. There’s a new chapter in this book called The Bum Rush, which calls on educators to crash the venue, basically. If the venue’s not letting you in, there’s only one bouncer. Maybe there’s 10 of you, right? Wu-Tang did it, so many did it.

Tony Simmons:
Wait, we’re talking about being really aggressive about it?

Michael Lipset:
Yeah.

Tony Simmons:
Maybe not Will Smith aggressive at the Oscars.

Michael Lipset:
No, certainly not. That’s-

David “TC” Ellis:
No, there you go.

Tony Simmons:
Maybe it’s a little too far.

Michael Lipset:
Little too soon.

Tony Simmons:
I just try to wake up everybody. But nevertheless, really just coming forward with a sense of urgency, a sense of we’re not going to just stand for our young people to be continuously dismissed, falling through the cracks and denied the opportunities that they have a right to achieve within our educational system. If you’re mad enough about that, you’re going to do something about it.

Michael Lipset:
And then-

Tony Simmons:
Thank you.

Michael Lipset:
The last piece I’ll offer is get the book, visit the school, but partner with somebody who does get hip hop, right? If you can hold the space, right? And keep whatever’s at bay that’s trying to shut it down or prevent it from happening, and simultaneously bring in the teaching artist that knows what to do in the space with this genre and culture, then you’ve won the day.

sam seidel:
And this should go without saying, but pay those artists.

Michael Lipset:
Hundred percent.

David “TC” Ellis:
That’s right.

sam seidel:
Do we have another question? Great, thank you. What was your name?

Speaker 7:
[inaudible 00:31:00].

sam seidel:
Okay. Thank you so much. So the question is about how we… I don’t know why I just took on this role of repeating all the questions. Anybody else want to repeat the question?

Tony Simmons:
Well, how do we engage young people authentically in hip hop when we know that there’s times where some of the lyrics can be misogynistic? It could just have things that, particularly in an educational setting, is not conducive to it. So we think about that a lot because we want to bring in young people, and we want to bring them in authentically. They’ll be able to sniff out quickly if you’re not being authentic. And one of the things we established right off the bat is that we believe in free speech. We don’t believe in censorship. We believe that art sometimes is happy, but sometimes art provokes. Sometimes art can even be offensive. And if a young person’s telling a story, they may be putting up a mirror to what they’re seeing in their community and may not be pretty. But at the same time, for us as an educational institution, we know that we have to have values that we could live by. And David’s mentioned what those are. Family, respect, community, education.

David “TC” Ellis:
Respect, Community and education.

Tony Simmons:
Now, when you build the right relationships with young people, they’ll buy into that fully. And all our students, you could go to any student on the last 20 years and say, “What are HSRA values?” And they’ll tell you it exactly. Family, respect, community, education. And I’m saying that because then as we are in this creative space and we know that there’s a time and place for everything, and they respect that when they’re within our educational setting, that we’re going to honor those values. We’re not going to do violence to those values. We’re going to express ourselves in ways that can extend out their stories still without those other aspects to it. But then as you start to engage projects and you’re doing other type of work, they could then begin to understand where those other dynamics that are really hurtful. That things that could talk about issues around gender and sexual orientation that can be harmful, harassment and bullying and all of those things.
In other words, you build those foundations step by step. And as you begin to go through that process of engaging and learning and interacting with them, you’re going to get to those things. What doesn’t work is just saying right off the bat to them, “You can’t do that.” So it’s a process and the-

Michael Lipset:
And young people deserve that. And particularly because it’s not just hip hop, right? Hip hop is a microcosm of America and a broader neoliberal world that produces and continues to replicate sexism, racism, capitalism, wealth inequality, all the things we know that young people are dealing with anyways. So bring hip hop into this space and let it provoke these conversations, because students need to be having these conversations with their educators in ways that are structured and scaffolded. Otherwise, we’re leaving them to have them anyways without us, right?

Tony Simmons:
Yeah, okay.

Michael Lipset:
So we got to do the knowledge ourselves on, okay, exactly this question, how do we do it when it arises? Without making hip hop the culprit, but keeping a big picture on what’s really going on within which hip hop actually is pushing back.

David “TC” Ellis:
I just wanted to say that is a great question. I’ve dealt with that since day one. And the big part of it is what I call giving them game. I’m like, “Hey, that can’t go on the radio.” So if we’re trying to get to a certain place, you got to know how to cold shift, you know what I’m saying? Where there’s a time and a place, sometime you got to pull your pants up, or you have to pull braid your dreads back. And they get that because they’re street savvy, they know what it is. So when I spit the truth to them and I’m telling them what it is, “Hey, this is a school, you can’t… You know how you got to tone that back.” But we can have a conversation but I just keep it real, it’s a relationship. And it’s showing them love and understanding. They have that opportunity and a relationship with an adult that’s telling them the right thing and they’ll listen. Yeah.

Michael Lipset:
Mari, do we have time for one more? I know Michelle said we could go a little bit long. Amazing. Yeah.

Speaker 8:
[inaudible 00:35:51] Amazing big crowd.

sam seidel:
Okay. I will. For the first one of my life.

Michael Lipset:
Tony, why don’t you beatbox and TC can-

Tony Simmons:
I have not been beatboxing.

David “TC” Ellis:
Yeah. I go acapella. I use the heartbeat.

Tony Simmons:
Well, we heard-

David “TC” Ellis:
Yeah. Yeah. You’d heard of something. Yeah, you could do that.

Tony Simmons:
Well-

Michael Lipset:
This is our guest of honor though.

Tony Simmons:
Yeah. Yeah. Well, let’s go. Let’s go.

David “TC” Ellis:
Okay. Well, I spit it like Twin City’s. See this here rap’s about the True Confession. If you listen close, you’re about to learn a lesson. You must know failure before success. Now this is the failure I must confess. I was hanging on the street trying to deal with this, playing the games almost God dismissed. Cocaine was a thing that I took on, and nowhere was the place that I was going. Now I must tell the truth. I cannot lie. I was headed for the kill still destroy and die. From the top to the bottom, the bottom to the top. Success is where I’m headed, there ain’t no doubt. Success is something that we all want, but the truth is what you need to reach that point. The truth is something you can’t deny. Your only defense is to tell a lie. I had to get this message, the stone-cold truth. I hope there’s something in it that’s there for you.
Like I said before, I’m going to tell you again, success is something that’s deep within. So remember the truth. You can’t go wrong. The flesh is weak, but the spirit is strong. I had to do this rap and I know it’s right because I did it in the truth. I did it in the light. True Confession.

Michael Lipset:
David “TC” Ellis, you all. Yes.

David “TC” Ellis:
But you know they saved the best for last.

Michael Lipset:
This has been a production of Hip Hop Genius. Order a copy now at hiphopgenius.org. All author royalties go to supporting the High School for Recording Arts. Original music for this podcast was produced by DJ Mickey Breeze. You can find Sam on Twitter at Hustlington. Tony can be found at Tony Minneapol. Michael can be found at last name Lipset. You can find TC on Twitter at David “TC” Ellis one. A special thank you to Alec Patton, editor in chief at High Tech High Unboxed for making this recording possible. Catch us next time on the Hip Hop Genius podcast.

Alec Patton:
High Tech High Unboxed is hosted and edited by me, Alec Patton. Our theme music is by Brother Herschel. If you like our podcast, you should definitely subscribe to the Hip Hop Genius podcast as well. You can find it anywhere you get your podcasts. Thanks for listening.