Marcy Clayson:
It’s your responsibility to check in with your partner to make sure your partner is happy with what’s going on right now. So you can’t just be like, “Well, they didn’t say no.” Well, did they say yes?

Alec Patton:
This is High Tech High Unboxed. I’m Alec Patton.

Jean Catubay:
And I’m Jean Catubay.

Alec Patton:
And that voice at the start of the episode belongs to Marcy Clayson who’s the Community Engagement Manager for Planned Parenthood of the Pacific Southwest. Marcy works with lots of high schools, including several High Tech High schools. And we got in touch with her because we wanted her to teach us how to talk about consent with students. I’ve been wanting to do an episode like this ever since we started the podcast because obviously sexual assault has been in the news. And one thing that struck me about the news coverage is that some of the stories that have come out, honestly, if my friends heard about them, when I was a high schooler in the nineties, none of us would have recognized them as sexual assault.

And that’s partly because no adults were talking to any of us about what consent means and why it’s really important. So stories and rumors that circulate around school, and we might hear them and say, “Wow, that’s messed up.” But I, at least wasn’t thinking that person is probably going to be traumatized by what happened for the rest of their life. Jean, was it different when you were in high school?

Jean Catubay:
Yeah, I think so much of what you’re saying is what I also experienced, but I think there’s also the part about the lack of language to describe the things that we were feeling. And so having this conversation with Marcy, even as someone who hadn’t been in school for a very long time, even for me, this conversation was so useful so that I can feel a little bit comfortable, not only talking about it with my students, but also how do I talk about consent with myself and how do I understand it a little bit better?

Alec Patton:
I think that’s a great point. These are conversations that many adults are as new to them as the kids are. And we should also say we started by talking about consent. But one thing I think that Marcy made clear really quickly is that you can’t talk about any aspect of sex education in isolation. So we ended up covering a lot of ground. I’m really excited to share this conversation. And the audio starts kind of rough, but it gets better soon. I promise.

Jean Catubay:
Marcy, do you have a working definition of consent?

Marcy Clayson:
When I talk about consent, when I ask my children, for example, just to keep it basic. When I say they didn’t give you consent. And I might be talking about the dog didn’t give you consent to pull its tail, right? And I say, “Are you understanding me? What does consent mean?” What I’m looking for is permission. So, we need to understand that consent means permission. And if we look at the definition of consent, it’s permission for something to happen or the agreement for something to happen, right?

Alec Patton:
When should you start talking about consent with kids?

Marcy Clayson:
As early as they can understand it. Consent can be taught with the most basic of things. Like I said, we have pets at home so we teach that with the dog didn’t give you permission to it, they didn’t consent to being played with right now. They’re telling you no when they’re growling back at you or talking in their way. When I want to hug my daughter, my daughter doesn’t want to be hugged, you’re not consenting to it right now. And that’s okay. So something like that. One of the things that I find that families often do is for example, when kids are taken to a family party or a dinner. You show up and you say, “Tommy, go and hug and kiss these 10 family members who, by the way, you see once a year.” So, you’re going to go and hug and kiss them, but not everybody feels comfortable with that kind of touch, or that kind of emotion.

And so, by saying, “You know what? Tommy doesn’t really feel comfortable with hugging and kissing everybody. But Tommy’s just going to say hi to everybody.” Right? “So Tommy, just say hi.” And that’s okay. So we’re not going to make him hug and kiss if that’s not something that this child feels comfortable with. So right there, you’re teaching them consent. If that’s something that they don’t feel comfortable with, it’s perfectly okay for them not to do it. And so they’re learning that they have control over their own body with something as little as that. And that’s something that’s taught really early on, because kids, pretty early on, can tell you, “I don’t really feel like hugging and kissing all these strangers.”

Alec Patton:
Shifting to teachers here, is it important to have a conversation about consent specifically as it relates to sexual activity? Or is it enough to have this kind of blanket understanding of what consent is?

Marcy Clayson:
Absolutely. Ideally, this is taught early on and this is a concept that kids know about, and they’re growing up with that. And then of course, you got to talk about consent when it comes to sex, right? And talking about what it means to consent and what consent looks like. Because while I say that consent should be taught at home, the reality is that it might not, right? And so it’s important that we continue to reinforce that. It’s important that we are laying it out for them, so that they understand how to carry on these healthy relationships, right? Just in case they maybe don’t see healthy relationships at home.

Alec Patton:
This is a real shift in gears but it’s a question that Jean wrote that I’m now curious about. How did you first get involved teaching through Planned Parenthood? Where does your story begin?

Marcy Clayson:
So, I started with Planned Parenthood… Actually tomorrow will be 16 years for me.

Jean Catubay:
Wow, congrats. That’s such a big milestone.

Marcy Clayson:
Yeah. And I started off in the health centers and I worked there for a while before I transitioned into the education department. What I can tell you, as far as education goes, is two parts. My mom was a very young mom with my older brother and she always talked about having a lack of knowledge back then, not really knowing what was going on, that there was a lack of knowledge, definitely a lack of communication between her and her parents. So, she didn’t know what birth control was, much less about places that you could go to get this kind of information. So, we had open communication as I was growing up. I still think that our communication could have been better, which is what I teach parents today. But there was some communication which is good, right? She did much more than was done for her.

So, that fueled my passion for Planned Parenthood. Then working in our health centers with patients on a daily basis, telling them about, “Hey, you’re positive for an STI, but this is what’s going to happen today.” Things like that, the lack of knowledge that so many people had regardless of their age. So, whether we had a team, whether we had somebody in their twenties or a grown person in the thirties or forties, for me, it really showed how much education is still needed in the community. And so, working in our education department has just been wonderful for me, being able to provide this education on a daily basis, again, whether it be a fifth grader, whether it be our high school students, or whether I’m teaching at San Diego state or teaching a parent’s class.

There’s so much that every age range needs to know that doesn’t know and they deserve to know this. I always talk to them about how this is your body. We only get one and it’s so important to know how it works in order to know how to take care of it, and hope for… not even hope, but to have a better outcome. And so, it’s my passion. And to see people’s eyes just light up like, “Oh, that’s how that happened”, or all the questions that you get, it’s something that I love to do.

Alec Patton:
So, if you could go back to your mom, when you were a kid, what advice would you give her about communicating with you?

Marcy Clayson:
Her word was always, “If you’re ready when you want it, you let me know and I will take you.” My advice to her would be, you can also say to your teen, “But if you don’t feel comfortable, these are places you can go. These are places you can go.” Or, “This is someone else you can talk to.” Because as a parent, and I’m a parent myself, I understand the wants to have your child feel comfortable talking to you. But what happens when your child, maybe, doesn’t want to talk to you, doesn’t feel comfortable for whatever reason. Maybe they’re just embarrassed, right? It’s no reflection of who you are. We want them to know where they can access that information so that they make healthier choices. And so, I just wish that if I could go back, that would be the one piece that I would give her.

Alec Patton:
Did your mom talk to you about consent?

Marcy Clayson:
No. That wasn’t something that was talked about.

Jean Catubay:
So interesting. I feel like I never got that conversation either. It was more of just like in the Mean Girls movie, “If you get pregnant, you’ll die. If you have sex, you’ll get pregnant and die.”

Marcy Clayson:
I don’t remember sex ed in school, to be completely honest.

Jean Catubay:
Yeah. Me either.

Marcy Clayson:
And my parents were very conservative, so I definitely thought like, “This was really cool of her.” So no.

Alec Patton:
Yeah. I find it a really odd thing. I remember in the 1980s, I think my babysitter had a button on her denim jacket that said, “No means no.” And I knew the phrase, no means no, but that was absolutely it. And the idea that not saying anything can be no too, and people can be uncomfortable in a lot of ways was just completely devoid from any conversation I ever had or heard really with adults, with other teenagers in the media, anywhere.

Marcy Clayson:
Yeah. I feel like we all grew up with the whole no means no. I feel like even kids today, when I’m teaching I ask, “Who’s heard of no means no.” And I have quite a few kids, the majority maybe, that say that they’ve heard that probably from parents during parenting. But I’m not sure if you’re familiar with the new consent law, but it’s no longer “no means no,” but it’s now “yes means yes.” So, you brought up a really great point about what about those who can’t say no? And so, that’s where no means where it’s no longer a working law.

So we go into school and when I’m teaching consent, I ask my students, “What’s wrong with no means no?” And the idea is to try to get them to think about, “Well, what about those who can’t speak up for themselves?.” So, whether it’s because of a disability, or because they’re drunk or high. So, whether it’s because they’re intoxicated, or they’re intimidated, and can’t say no. So, it’s really important that they understand that only yes means yes. And that a yes must be ongoing, that a yes can be taken away at any point, that it can’t be coerced. So, those are all the things that we go over when we’re talking about consent.

Alec Patton:
I also feel like there’s no more quintessentially teenage experience than going along with something, because you have no idea how to say that you don’t want to.

Marcy Clayson:
And we talk a little bit about that. How do you know if your partner really wants this. So, when you’re talking about, I don’t really know how to say no, or how do I say that I’m really not into this? So, we ask them. It’s your responsibility to check in with your partner to make sure your partner is happy with what’s going on right now. Right? So, you can’t just be like, “Well, they didn’t say no.” Well, did they say yes? Were they happy about this? Were they excited? So they kind of laugh at us a little but if you’re having sex, that should be excited about this. So, check in. And how could you check in? So, we have them brainstorm. It should be something as easy as do you like this? Does this feel good? Are you okay with this? And only when your partner is telling you, “Yes, I am.” Should you proceed, right? Only then is it consent. So, going through all those things.

Alec Patton:
Jean, can you imagine facilitating that brainstorming session for your students?

Jean Catubay:
No. No, no. I’m going to call Marcy. Yeah. Just as background where I teach seventh grade. So they’re 12 to 13 years old, just discovering for the most part because some of them are very, very sure, at this point, of who they are, but still blooming at this point.

Marcy Clayson:
But how important is it? And it’s interesting because they have all these questions. And I ask them, “What about if you ask me if I’m okay with this?” And I giggle and say, “Kind of” or “Maybe”, and they’re like, “Well that’s not no.” But was that “yes”?

Jean Catubay:
Yeah.

Marcy Clayson:
So, trying to get them to understand, again, that anything shy of a yes is a no. So, it definitely makes for good… And it’s such an important conversation. Because while we say, “Listen, this should be a no-brainer. This should have been talked about a long time ago”. It might not have been. So important.

Jean Catubay:
So, depending on which age groups you’re focusing on, how would you start deciding what information to give out, say for elementary versus middle and high school?

Marcy Clayson:
Well, kids seems to know so much at such a young age that I would love it if schools would host a workshop, or two a year, so that we could let parents know, “Hey, this is what your kid needs to know by this age.” So, for example, between five and seven year olds, kids are already should be knowing about gender roles, right? They might be shy about asking questions, but they have a lot of them because they might’ve heard the term “gay,” or they might’ve heard about AIDS, and they want to know about this stuff. And they have the ability to comprehend this. So, those are your five to seven year olds.

Alec Patton:
What do you mean by gender roles?

Marcy Clayson:
So, what it means to be male or female? But then also, that you can say but just because somebody was born male or female. So, when we’re talking about sex, maybe they don’t feel male or female. So, encompassing that whole issue, they have the ability to comprehend that. They’re able to comprehend these assigned gender roles, as well. And so, it’s important that we don’t feed into them. So, the whole “boys shouldn’t cry, only girls cry.” Things like that. So, those are your five to seven year olds. Your eight to twelve year olds, they should already be learning about puberty, right? So, your qoute unqoute what dreams about menstruation. They’re already worrying about what’s normal. So, that means penis size, breast size, body type. Reassuring them that there isn’t this standard size for everybody, that everyone’s different and different is normal. Again, there’s all these things that they need to know other different ages, and that they can grasp already.

So, I would love it if schools have a family communication workshop that says,”why is it important that you talk to your youth about sexuality?” So not just sex, but sexuality in general, this is why, and this is what your youth needs to know. So whether you have a two-year-old at home, or whether you have a fifteen-year-old at home. California State Law says that students must get comprehensive sex education, once in middle school and once in high school. So, schools can decide what grade they want to teach that in, and it’s not a day of sex ed. It’s actually so much information. We currently have one curriculum and it incorporates so much. So this is a law that says, that you have to talk about HIV, other STIs, about abstinence, about birth control methods, condom use, about gender identity, healthy relationships. You have to talk about consent, body image, sex trafficking. So there’s so many different components, but again, it’s once in middle school, once in high school, that has to be taught per school.

Alec Patton:
That’s awesome. Thank you.

Jean Catubay:
Yeah.

Alec Patton:
So, one thing I’m wondering about, it’s very reassuring. I didn’t realize that it was by law that students have those sex ed classes. I’m also aware though that as a teacher, assuming that kids have learned something somewhere else, is one of the quickest recipes for disaster, as Jean can attest to. And so, I think the wrong message would be, “Oh great. They’re going to learn about anatomy, and they’re going to learn about sexual orientation, and they’re going to learn about consent, and they have to by law. So, I don’t have to do it.” On the flip side, I think, and this is something that Jean alluded to, as a teacher, there was literally nothing I would be less inclined to talk about with my students than sex. That was the absolutely the thing that just no one in the room would have been glad if we were doing that.

And so, I’m wondering if you’re a teacher, one thing is to be like, “Okay guys. Here’s Marcy. She does sex ed. Bye.” And just sort of disassociating yourself from it. And I think in some context, I actually think there’s a positive to that. I think it is a good thing to be my relationship with you is not that we talk about this, but this person’s is. But I also think as a teacher, you do have a responsibility to be helping your kids be good people in the world and not hurt each other or other people. So, if you’re a teacher, you’re not from Planned Parenthood, you’re not the sex ed person. How do you talk about sex and consent in class with students? And I’m thinking middle school up here in my head.

Marcy Clayson:
One thing that’s really important is to not give information you don’t know. So, we understand this isn’t everyone’s area. If this isn’t your thing, this isn’t your thing, and that’s okay. Then there’s places that you can go. Bringing in experts is great. Having guest speakers, I think it is a great idea because like you said, there is a certain level of responsibility on teachers to help make students better people. So, if you don’t feel like you’re equipped to teach these classes, if you don’t have that information, I hate to say, let’s not make it up, but let’s not. And also because it can trigger things in our youth. Some of this information can be triggering. So, you want to make sure that you have the experts in the room. So again, bringing in guest speakers is always a great idea.

Again, I’m going to refer to Sex Ed To Go. So bringing in programs where you could have the students take the classes, or if you’re not trained, but you want to provide this for them, you can take these classes and it’ll walk you through how to teach that anatomy class, how to teach that class on healthy relationships, or on birth control, whatever it is. So that it helps you. I think that’s great. The other thing is that it’s so important that information is always trauma-informed, that we don’t ever put in our own opinions. So when we teach, I never go in teaching my thoughts or my beliefs. And students will often ask you that especially, I got to assume, especially from their own teachers, because you’re with them all the time. They look up to you.

And what I’ve seen specifically for my High Tech youth is, they love their teachers. They build such great relationships with them. They want to know, “Hey, what do you think about this? When do you think is the right time to have sex?” Or, “What do you think is the best birth control method?” That kind of thing. But as their educator, it’s so important that we never give our opinions. That’s not our place. It’s really important that all we give them is medically accurate information and that we point them the right place to go. And then again, for a values-related question that we always send them home. That’s a great question. But I think you should ask your parent or you should ask your guardian or that trusted adult at home. So I think that’s huge.

Alec Patton:
There are certain things that I totally am on board of that, but “Is it okay to be gay?” Isn’t something that I want to be like, “Ask your parents.”

Marcy Clayson:
Right. So, is it okay in the sense I can tell you medically? You’re fine. Are you a good person? You’re fine. Are you okay? Is it in your family? I can’t talk about religion with you. I mean, can you imagine what parents would come back and say to us.

Jean Catubay:
Yeah.

Marcy Clayson:
I get what you’re saying, because we also want to give them a safe place. We want to make them feel safe and loved. They’re worried like everyone else. And you’re right. If they don’t have a safe place at home, then we want to refer them to a place that is safe. So that’s where resources come into play. Here, these are great places that you can call or visit when you don’t feel like coming out at home is probably a safe place. So I see what you’re saying, but-

Alec Patton:
Yeah. I’m super interested in this. I think that I can give a specific example here. If you’re a teacher with five to seven year old students and you’re helping them understand gender identity, and you say it’s fine to cry if you’re a boy. And the kid says, “Well, that’s not what my dad says.” I wouldn’t want to say, well-

Marcy Clayson:
Your dad’s wrong.

Alec Patton:
I wouldn’t want to say that’s wrong but I also wouldn’t want to say, “Your dad’s right.”

Marcy Clayson:
Right. Of course. So, I think I would probably just respond something like, in this space, it’s okay for boys to cry. In this space, anyone can cry. So, making sure that your space is a safe space, and making sure that they know that and that they feel that, because you’re right. You can’t say, “Well, your dad’s wrong” or “Your dad’s right”, whatever it is. So, you just need to let them know that where they are is safe.

Jean Catubay:
Yeah.

Alec Patton:
Yeah.

Marcy Clayson:
We do have those students where I’ll teach something and they’ll say, “Oh, but I’ve been taught this at home.” And I might say, “I’m sorry that you experienced that.” Or “I’m sorry that’s what you felt. I want you to know that here is a safe space.” Or “Here, that language isn’t tolerated.” Or, “We don’t express ourselves that way.”

Jean Catubay:
I was wondering Marcy, when you do your workshops, are there certain parameters or guidelines or norms that you set up before you start, so that you can maintain those safe spaces?

Marcy Clayson:
What we talk about is no personal questions. So don’t ask me what birth control I’m on. That doesn’t have any implication on what birth control you’ll be on type of thing. I do let them know that I’m a mandated reporter, right? So sometimes they’ll want to tell me anyway. And maybe because I feel safe with her, I know that she’s going to help me. Maybe I haven’t felt like anybody else has. But they should know that if there are certain things they say that I would have to report. So I do say that. And the other thing that we always talk about is confidentiality. So that everything that gets talked about in our class stays in our class, right? So we’re not going to leave the classroom and say, “Billy said this.”

And I always say, anything that I teach that information you can absolutely share with everyone else, but whatever you guys share, whatever you ask that has to stay here, we don’t go and share that anyone else. And they do great. They want to learn about this. This is the most open space they’ve ever had when it comes to talking about sex. So kids will abide by these agreements because they want to come back. They want their questions answered.

Jean Catubay:
So what advice do you have for protecting our students who identify outside of the gender binary of male and female?

Marcy Clayson:
All of our language is very inclusive. So when I’m teaching an anatomy class I never say men, women, boy, girl, all of our language is inclusive. A person with a penis, a person with a vagina. We talk about partners. We don’t talk about boyfriends or girlfriends. Everything that we teach is very inclusive so that it applies to everybody. When I have to talk about male or female and I’m talking about sex, then I say, right now I’m going to talk about male or the female sex or talking about sexes. I’m not talking about gender.

And at the beginning of our curriculum, we go over what gender identity is, what someone’s sex is. So really just going over who we are as a person. So that we, again, that we don’t fit into these boxes so that we make sure to respect everybody and to include everybody. We like to, when we start a class also say, “Hi, my name is Marcy. These are my pronouns. This is how you can refer to me. What are yours?” Or let me know if you have a specific way that you’d like to be addressed again, to just make everybody feel welcome.

Jean Catubay:
Yeah. And also just another form of consent to, in a way of I consent to being called this or that or whatever it is that you choose. I like that.

Marcy Clayson:
Yeah, absolutely.

Alec Patton:
I wanted to kind of circle back because you talked about outside experts which I think is really helpful. And I’m wondering, going back to the consent conversation that we started with and thinking about Jean and her seventh grade classroom, do you think Jean should have a conversation with her students about affirmative consent and what that means or do you think it’s better that she bring in a guest speaker to sort of lead that conversation?

Marcy Clayson:
I think you need to make sure that you’re equipped to handle what might come out of it. So could you trigger somebody? We’re teaching that sex should happen only when you want to have sex. And only when someone says yes, but what happens when you have somebody in the room who was forced to have sex whose situation wasn’t like that, are you prepared to deal with that? Are you equipped for that? Those would be the things that I would think about if somebody is thinking about talking about this, but isn’t trained. And if maybe you’re like, “Nope, I still want to talk about this.” Great.

Then maybe talk to a school counselor beforehand and let them know that you’re going to be talking about consent on X day and for them to maybe be kind of on standby so to speak just in case there’s a student that might want to talk to them. I would also let students know ahead of time. We’re going to be talking about consent and sex on this day. And if that’s something that could be triggering for somebody, please let me know. So in case you don’t want to be a part of that conversation, again, it’s all part of being trauma informed, but making sure that you’re creating a safe space for all those involved.

Alec Patton:
Is there a good way to get trained by Planned Parenthood as a teacher?

Marcy Clayson:
Yeah. So our Sex Ed to Go platform is wonderful. You can go to our website for that. It’s planned.org/sexedtogo. It also has teaching materials, which is great. So it can help get teachers ready to teach certain classes on there.

Jean Catubay:
Oh, this is so cool. I’m looking at it now, Marcy. And the thing that I love the most, it says “free.”

Marcy Clayson:
Yeah. Exactly. We know this something that’s so important and people need access.

Jean Catubay:
Yeah. And it has a time how long each lesson takes also. So that’s really helpful. This is beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing this.

Marcy Clayson:
It’s a great resource. I’d definitely recommend it for, if you can’t get us in person, something that you can access.

Alec Patton:
Jean, do you have more questions?

Jean Catubay:
I guess for Marcy, where can we find you? What’s the best way for listeners to get in contact with you and connect with your work?

Marcy Clayson:
So my personal email is mclayson [at] planned.org. That would be the best way to connect with me. And I’d be happy like I said, to come out and provide education here throughout San Diego County and for anywhere else in the country, finding your local Planned Parenthood and looking up their education team.

Alec Patton:
Awesome. Marcy, thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us. I’ve certainly learned a lot.

Marcy Clayson:
It’s my pleasure. My pleasure. Thank you so much for having me with you guys.

Jean Catubay:
Thanks Marcy.

Marcy Clayson:
You’re welcome.

Alec Patton:
This episode of High Tech High Unboxed was hosted by Jean Catubay, and me Alec Patton. Our theme music is by Brother Hershel. We’ve got Marcy’s email address and a link to the sex ed to go curriculum in the show notes. Thanks for listening.