Isamu Thung:
One of the things that I’ve noticed as I’ve grown in more traditional schools and also in a project-based learning school is that when there are projects that are really centered around our curiosities, it definitely feels like play. And just having us go into the field and actually talk to people and actually learn more about communities or do research on our own, it definitely feels a lot like we are learning in a very organic way. And I think teachers that can really cultivate a fun environment for that and it’s completely normal to not know the answers to things and to actually learn more and to talk to other students about those things. I think that has been something that’s really made me feel like, oh, wow, school can look totally different than what I’ve been growing up with and was used to.

Alec Patton:
This is High Tech High Unboxed. I’m Alec Patton, and this episode is being recorded live at the 2025 at Deeper Learning conference in San Diego, California. You all in the crowd make some noise so the folks at home can hear you. It’s my profound great pleasure to introduce the man who’s going to be facilitating the session. He’s the Senior Advisor on Teaching and Learning at EL Education, he was an elementary school teacher for 28 years and he’s written and co-authored several indispensable books on education, including the book that made me decide to become a teacher, an Ethic of Excellence, a book which every time I pick it up, I cry, but in a positive way. Everybody put your hands together for Ron Berger.

Ron Berger:
Thank you, Alec. So it is my honor to be the interviewer today. I’m not the speaker today. I’m the interviewer of four amazing people. I will say, just in terms of who I am, I have been working with High Tech High since it started, since actually the planning year before High Tech High started, so I’ve been at every Deeper Learning conference. I am here every year because for those of you who know Star Wars, this is Rebel Alliance base camp for me. This is the Rebel Alliance gathering of the people who are worried about America right now and the dark time, the empire in charge. But we are a Rebel Alliance, all of us from all over America and the world working together for this conference always gives me hope we are in this together, part of the resistance.
I’m here to introduce four amazing educators, two amazing high school students and their amazing mothers. Now usually we would introduce with all the background of their degrees or their… But that’s not what I want to have them introduce themselves for. The reason I’ve asked them to come here, two of them from Japan just for this, is because for the last year, I’ve been learning from all four of them about the differences between Japanese education and American education and what we can learn from Japanese education. So what I’m asking them to share with you is what country were they in for what parts of their schooling? Because every one of them has been in America for part of their schooling and Japan for a part of their schooling, and some of them have been in Europe for a part of their schooling. So they have a real cross-cultural perspective. So I’m going to start with Etsuko. I need to say Etsuko, mom of Isamu, translated my book, Ethnic of Excellence, into Japanese, so yeah. So Etsuko?

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
Thank you Ron. Thank you. Hi, everybody. My name is Etsuko and I grew up in Japan and first 17 years, I was in Japan going to school. And then one year I did the high school exchange program with AFS and I was in Germany. Came back, went to college in Japan, and then two years of graduate school in Monterey, California. That’s my schooling.

Isamu Thung:
Thank you, Ron. Hi, my name’s Isamu and I am the son of her. I am a senior at High Tech High Mesa and I was born in San Diego and grew up here for the first seven years of my life and got until second grade here. And then my family moved to Japan for five years. And so there I went to a public elementary school. And then after that, I moved back or we moved back to America and I’ve been to 11 schools over the past 10 years, just between different transfers and stuff like that. And for high school, I am at High Tech High Mesa, and so that encapsulates my schooling experience.

Hanako Fujiwara:
Thank you everyone. Thank you, Ron. As for me, I spent my kindergarten years in Japan, but from grade one to grade three, I lived in Texas and I attended elementary school there. And then I went back to Japan and continued my elementary education up until middle school, high school. And last year for a year I went to an exchange program in Spain and spent a year as a high schooler there. But now I’m back in Japan and studying in a Japanese high school.

Ron Berger:
And Hanako, just your-

Hanako Fujiwara:
Oh, yeah. I’m Hanako. Sorry. I forgot.

Sato Fujiwara:
Hello, my name is Sato. I am mother of Hanako and first of all, I have to admit that my English is not very good, but I’m just trying to talk. And actually I was born in Japan in 1971 and I was born in a small city in southern part of Japan. So when my family came to Tokyo, my classmates laughed at me with my dialect. And then after I graduated from college, I spent two years in the United States doing my master’s degree, and then I came back to Japan, so basically I’m in Japan and I’m doing the PDs in Japan right now. Thank you.

Ron Berger:
Great. And Sato-san is a professor in Japan and an author and is writing a book right now on democracy and education, which we’re very excited about. So the first question I’m going to put to them is about how Japanese schools unlock the potential of students. This is not a presentation or a conversation about which schools are better. This is not trying to use the provocation of are these schools in America better or are the schools in Japan better? It’s what can we learn from Japanese schools that we can borrow for here and what can we learn about the best of American schools like the High Tech High schools that we can take back with us? So we’re really looking for things we can borrow.
I do want to say when they’re sharing, it will be clear to all of us that there’s cultural differences and it’s easy to think, “Oh, that works there because of this culture,” just like it would be easy for them to think, “Oh, that works here because of this culture,” and to think it’s impossible to move that practice here, but we don’t think that’s true. I’ll use a very specific example. We’re going to start with talking about how Japanese students take responsibility during the day outside of class in a very different way than students in America. And you could say, “but that’s because Japanese culture supports that and American culture is very individualistic and we don’t support that.” But one example is that in Japan, students clean their classroom instead of having adult custodians come in to clean. Japanese students serve meals to each other. They clean up from meals for each other, instead of having adults hired to do that.
You could say that’s not possible in America, but in my classroom for 28 years, my students did all the cleaning, all the setup, all the care of everything because if you ask American students to do that and you empower them, they will do it. So I’m hoping when they share stories, we don’t think, “Oh, that’s because it works there, but it wouldn’t work here,” but we think, “Oh yeah, we could bring that here.” So the first thing I’m going to ask all of you about is what are the kinds of things in Japan outside the classrooms that students are trusted to do without adult supervision, where they self-organize to do in ways that we don’t do it all here. So I’d like you to talk about classroom set up, clean up, clubs, getting to school, all the things that Japanese students do that we don’t feel like we can trust American students to do. Isamu, why don’t you jump right in?

Isamu Thung:
Thank you, Ron. So when I was in elementary school, I actually joined percussion, a brass orchestra group, and I was in third grade when it started or third and fourth. And one of the things that I noticed all the people a few years above me do was they would go ahead and set up all the chairs and all the musical stands for the entire orchestra before our practice. And this was without any teacher prompting us to do so. This was without really any adult in the space. Once we could enter the room, everyone just got their chairs and their stands, and once they were finished setting their stuff up, they would rush in to help other people set it up and bringing out all the instruments in this whole thing.
And so really, I looked at all that and it just felt very natural for me to want to be helpful and want to find ways to make sure that we all succeed. And I think that’s one of the reasons why also in the classroom where we clean the classroom after lunch and we set things up, I think it’s very natural to want to help in that way because it’s just we are in this together. And I think growing up in that environment helped me just have a lens of more community and finding ways to be of use to the people around me.

Ron Berger:
Great. And Hanako, I’m going to ask you, in America we worry about trusting kids even in the hallway by themselves or to leave the campus by theirself. Can you talk about the trip you went on with your classmates with no adult supervision?

Hanako Fujiwara:
Oh, yeah. That was… Well, I can talk about two. The one that I think you’re referring to is the trip that I had with a friend over the spring break. We planned a four days trip totally on our own, and we only remember to ask our parents for permissions after a month of starting to plan. But yeah, my parents were totally fine. Our teacher coincidentally, actually found out, but he encouraged us to go anyways. And so we were on this four trips together. We did all the planning, all the booking of the hotels, all the transport, and I think we were trusted to do that all on our own because of the habit that we build up from our elementary school years where, when I was an elementary schooler in Japan, I had to go to school every single day taking a train, passing by Shibuya, Harajuku, all the big areas in Japan within all the people.
So we’re really used to transport and as well as we’re trusted to do that, the people in Japan, our parents, were able to trust the people at the hotels, the people at the places that we’re visiting to take care of us. And indeed, they did. The people at the hotels, they were so nice to us. We didn’t book it with any meal service or anything, but they actually gave us some breakfast, which we never asked for. It was so heartwarming. And I think that trust that is built for the students, as well as the community, I guess, within Japan as a whole is really important in that sense.

Ron Berger:
Great. And Sato and Etsuko, can you talk about growing up in Japanese schools? What are all the ways in which students were trusted to self-organize and lead things that we don’t seem to trust students in America to do?

Sato Fujiwara:
When she became a first grader, she goes to school, she went to public elementary school, but she went there by herself, but on the first day, so anxious. So I was following her with this. And actually, she took the wrong way. And then, she went to public school in Texas. We lived in northern part of Houston, and I really liked the environment there. And actually, that school was so liberal so that they didn’t even do the Christmas celebration because many students come from other countries so that every student presented the world celebration. So she presented the Japanese celebration New Year. But in the science fair, I was surprised because all the teachers and parents did all the preparation. And in Japanese schools, even me 30, 40 years ago, students, even the students in the elementary school do the scheduling and MCs and planning. So that might be a difference between the American schools and Japanese schools.

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
I have a very similar experience with Sato, but actually maybe the opposite. I moved to San Diego 2002, and he was born in 2006 and by the time we moved back to Japan 2014, he had several years of me living the states. So I met with my friend and she asked me, do I feel like I’m not American? And I thought about it and I’m like, “Funnily enough, I don’t feel like I’m American, but I do think that I’m American mom,” meaning that in the States, I do what everybody does here, like driving kids door-to-door. At any moment, they are not out of sight of adult. But in Japan, we have to let them go on their own to school.
So when we first moved to Japan, I would follow them. Not just doing this from the thing, but just walk with them. And I did three days and then a elementary school teacher in Japan, like, [foreign language 00:15:59] “Mom, it’s okay. You don’t have to do that anymore. This is Japan.” I’m like, “Oh, okay.” Even though I did myself do that growing up in Japan. So I thought it was really interesting how I learned by being in the states, this is what we do, but it’s a totally different environment. And I remember that conversation distinctly.

Ron Berger:
Great. And I often say one of the examples I often use in America and how we don’t trust kids is that in middle schools in America, kids are not trusted to even be in the room alone. If the teacher leaves, they worry that kids are unsupervised for one minute. And then those same students go home and people hire them to be their babysitters, which means they watch the most important thing in the world, in those families’ lives to take care of their children in emergencies, to make sure the children are happy and safe. And they go out to dinner and they think, “This young woman is trustable with the most precious thing I have in the world.” And then the next day they go to school and they’re like, “We can’t trust you one minute in the hallway.” These are the same kids. As we trust with the lives of our children, how do we assume they’re not capable?
So Isamu, you mentioned something interesting to me about how in American schools, kids feel like if they’re not told what to do, it’s not their responsibility because it’s like, “Oh, the school didn’t force me to do this, to get set up, to self-organize or to get everything running, so I’m just going to slack off and be a jerk.” Whereas in Japan, the kids assume, “This is up to us.” Can you talk about the self-organizing? All the ways that you’ve seen kids self-organize in Japan?

Isamu Thung:
Yeah. One of the opportunities that I had two summers ago was I got to study abroad in Japan, which is strange because I also was there in elementary school, but when I was there, we had a music festival and one of the things I witnessed was every class is organizing performance and they actually edit the music themselves and actually write parody lyrics to it and choreographic themselves. And during their recess time, a lot of them, most classes actually, they would find ways to rehearse by themselves. And this is actually something that I think a lot of other clubs, even in America and other countries as well, do, which is when it comes to performing arts or musical groups, a lot of kids manage to self-organize. And I think especially when you have multiple grades coming together, there’s a natural sense of you’re looking to people who have been here before as your leaders and you’re finding ways to practice as a group.
And I think that’s one thing where this idea of taking responsibility, I think it’s really felt within the kids that if this is going to be shown to a public audience, if our parents are going to see this, if our classmates are going to see this, we really want to put something that’s really high quality. And once kids know that is the bar that we’re sending ourselves to, then I think that is very motivating for them. And I have had lots of opportunities to participate in that myself, which I think has been really wonderful for me.

Ron Berger:
Great. Now there’s a new documentary movie out called Instruments of the Heart. Some of you may have seen it. There’s a long version and then there’s about a 20 minute version of it, and it’s about a Japanese first grade practicing for a music performance. And we all watched it and commented on it. I was so interested in all of their perspectives, and they both found that those things like taking responsibility, organizing the classroom, cleaning up, rehearsing, practicing, being run by first grade students was very much what they all experienced in Japan. However, it also triggered, for many of you, there’s parts of Japanese education that you are not so happy about, which was the obedience and not being able to question. So can you talk about what you value about American schools or schools in Spain for you, Hanako, about kids’ ability to question the teacher and question the relevance of what we’re doing, which is not really allowed in Japanese schools?

Hanako Fujiwara:
Oh, okay. I can start. So okay, I’ll talk about my experience in Spain. In Spanish culture, I think it’s as much as in the culture as in the schools, but it isn’t equivalent to questioning, but I think the students really know how to see everyone including their classmates, like students from other grades, as well as their teachers, as equal humans, which was really surprising to me in a way and was something that I didn’t see in Japan and because in Japan I’ve had this experienced culture of how we have to obey the people older than us, even one grade ahead of us. But in Spain, I saw that how even within the grade, there were many kids who had to drop a grade because they weren’t able to get good grades, but everyone respected each other nevertheless. And the barriers between boys and girls weren’t seen.
And what surprised me the most probably in the beginning, was how they were calling their teachers with their names, not their “Mr. Something, Ms. Something,” but just Manuel or Javier. And I was really surprised by that. And the teachers, although within the classroom they were maintaining this position of having to teach the kids, once they were out of the classroom in the courtyard during recess, the teachers were out in the courtyard actually with the students, which I never saw during the recess time in Japan. And they were actually interacting with the students and having conversations just like friends. And that was really surprising to me.
But at the same time, I thought that was really similar to how the adults in Spain interacted because when I went there, older adults, even they were a lot older than me, they just talked to me like I was their friend and they were interested about my culture and everything that I knew and they were really genuinely interested in learning from me. And I feel like that attitude was really learned from the environments that they grew up in, of just having interactions that is genuine and level with everyone else.

Ron Berger:
Terrific. And can the rest, the three of you mention what are the things that are hard for you about in Japanese education, the need to obey and not ask questions or question the meaning of the work?

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
Well, I have a creativity scar. When I was fourth grade, my teacher criticized my drawing in a harsh way, almost like, “Are you kidding me?” kind of way. And from that moment I decided that I’m not a creative person and that just affected my whole life, I should say. And so one thing I really appreciate about here in the States and my experience is through his experience, watching him as a mom, but especially maybe at High tech High, you are encouraged to use your voice. And I think that’s one thing I really appreciate and value about American education or schools that I experienced through him as opposed to what I had experienced in Japan.

Isamu Thung:
Yeah, and I would also say I definitely stood out when I was in Japan as an elementary school student. I definitely have a rebellious spirit inside of me. And I think part of that is my curiosity for lots of different things. And when there’s a rule… When I was in Japan, there’s this really very small thing where it’s like, you shouldn’t eat dessert before your main meal. And one time I ate the dessert before the actual course, and apparently one of the students told the teacher about that, and so there was a little… And then my-

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
Yeah, actually the teacher told me at the three-way conference, “Isamu eats orange first.” And I’m like, “Okay, so?”

Isamu Thung:
Yeah, so there’s just small things like that. But I think definitely once I came to America, expressing your opinion and voice was something that I became more comfortable with. And it was actually a bit foreign to me because in Japan for sure, it was interesting because I was doing performing arts, which is inherently, you are expressing yourself, but then in the classroom, the atmosphere is like, “don’t express yourself.” And you want to be the average or just act normal, so to speak. And so I think that’s one of the… It’s almost even within the same country, you have very different perceptions of what a space is supposed to look like depending on whether you’re in the classroom or outside the classroom in a performing arts group. So I think those are just different experiences that have just been contrasting to me, and it’s been fascinating to experience those things.

Ron Berger:
Sato?

Sato Fujiwara:
Okay. When people praise Japanese system, like about cleaning rooms together and preparing lunch together, I was like, “I don’t know how to say that.” I remember when I was an elementary school, I was a picky eater and I couldn’t finish eating lunch served by the school. The lunch, you have to eat up all the things. But the menu was determined by the school and it was really hard for me to finish all the things. And after lunch, the students will start cleaning the room and the students will move all the desks and chairs to the side of the classroom. And I was in between the desks and chairs and others, schoolmates, moved my desk and chairs toward the edge of the class. I had to eat the lunch among the dust. But still, I couldn’t say, “I can’t eat up all the things” or I couldn’t say, “I don’t feel good if somebody moves my desks and chairs.” So that happens in Japanese classrooms.

Ron Berger:
Great. And so I think it’s clear, we’re not saying one is better than the other, but there are aspects that are challenging and that we’re not really unleashing student potential in America and then in Japan in other ways, which is really interesting. I think we should transition to questions from the audience. So you can ask a general question of everyone or you can ask a follow-up question to any one of these people about, “tell us more about how this happens in Japan or your reaction to this.” So anyone can start.

Speaker 7:
Hi, thank you so much. My question’s for Isamu and Hanako. I’m a high school teacher in California and my students talk a lot about mental health and challenges that their peers are having with mental health. At this moment. I’d love to hear what the conversations are like either at High Tech High and in Japan around mental health for teenagers. Thanks.

Isamu Thung:
Thank you for that. I think this is just such a huge topic and I certainly don’t have all the answers, but at High Tech High, one of the things that we’re really fortunate to have is a lot of services that students can use and these things are promoted by the teachers and by the directors. And we have a school psychologist and we also have a support dog who is just beloved by all the students at the school. And we celebrate his birthday and it’s just a really wonderful communal thing. So I think schools having these services and spreading awareness for them is one big aspect of it.
And also I think because our schools are quite small, we only have 100 people per grade, I think that allows for a closer connection between teachers and students. And because of that, I feel just because I’ve been to a lot of different schools and understand the different cultures that I’ve experienced, definitely at High Tech High there is a greater sense of connection and the ability to reach out to one of these adults if you have things that you’re going through or things that make you uncomfortable or stuff like that. And I think that that’s been a tremendous help for me as well, just knowing that the people around me can have a safe adult they can talk to and are supported in that way. I think that’s very comforting to be a student as well.

Hanako Fujiwara:
Thank you for your question. I think mental health is what Japanese schools struggle the most with, in a way, because just in general, suicide rates among kids, I think, is very high in Japan and bullying is a big problem as well. And as of my experience, I’ve had two of my closest friends actually who struggled with mental health while I was attending Japanese school and at one point, they stopped coming to school and they ended up having to transfer to another school. So that’s a really personally a big question for me as well.
And I think in Japan there’s a lot of pressure, both from the school, as well as the student’s parents to achieve high academic grades or scores. And that, I think, intervenes a lot with the students being able to focus on their physical as well as their mental problem. Kids cut up their sleep to study. And I think because there’s so much pressure, although there is a counselor in school, no one really can reach out. And I’ve heard that those actual friends who ended up transferring to another school because of their mental problems, they felt intimidated to go to the counselor because they thought that it was a sign of weakness. And I think that’s something that should be changed and I hope would be changed.

Ron Berger:
And just to follow to say, you may know this already, but the leading cause of death for teenagers in America is guns and the leading cause of death for teenagers in Japan is suicide. So we both have serious problems in our cultures. Hanako, I want to shout you out because in your school you actually tried to raise the question of stress on children, and Hanako actually tried to get her classmates to work together to lobby for change for less pressure in her school, but it was not an easy process. Thank you. Another question.

Marsha Thorne:
Thank you for sharing. Marsha Thorne. I’m at a New York at a performing arts school, but previously, I was at a public school in New York high school, middle school to high school. And thank you for sharing. My question is for both of the students as well. So when you mentioned that the guidance counselor was frowned upon, I think in America we have an overabundance and usage of our guidance counselor and not in a bad way, but students may use it as a way to avoid going to class, so to speak. But I also worked in spaces, as I was sharing with my principal friend here from Australia, about restorative practices. And in that, we would have teachers, we would have parents, and we would do just circles to talk about these SEL components. And I didn’t know if Japan was embracing that as well? If you had the opportunity and do you see more of a grow of that to address concerns to activate student voices?

Hanako Fujiwara:
For me, I’m not very aware of the history behind, so I don’t know how much it changed over the years, but in the elementary school that I attended, there was a guidance class which was, well, I think initially designed to help those kids struggling mental health to be able to speak out their inner self. But I think because Japanese schools are structured very strictly, they also work by a textbook that they have. So what they do in the guidance class is more of how to be able to behave properly. So it’s like how to be able to schedule your days so that you could work efficiently and will quote-unquote “rest efficiently,” which is in turn, more of a stressor for kids. So I think even though the teachers might have the intention to help the kids, it works out oftentimes that it becomes more of a stressor and not really of a space of listening to problems, being open. And while some teachers really encouraged to do that, I think it isn’t common to all of the teachers.

Isamu Thung:
Yeah, and thank you for that. You shared an interesting experience where students are maybe even abusing the system of the guidance counselor as a way to sneak out of the class. And the point I think you bring up is there’s not a one size fits all and every school environment is in a different place. And so I think maybe some of the schools in Japan, we’re still at a step of normalizing going to counseling or normalizing getting help and not seeing that as a weakness. But in other settings, it might be that it’s actually that a different approach or a different understanding of what this service is used for might need to be developed.
And also, just to your point of restorative conversations, I’m fortunate enough that the dean of students at my high school is very well-practiced, and so she and I, we had restorative conversations quite recently also. And so I think that has definitely just been something that I am very appreciative. But I think having the awareness of different schools are in different places and being able to not just blindly apply just one approach to all of them, but to actually understand what’s going on at that school and what are the students’ relationships with these services or what are the parents’ understanding of these things, and then be able to change the way you talk about these things or get people to understand it and get people aware about it, I think is something that will be really important.

Hanako Fujiwara:
Great.

Carolene:
Thank you for everything that you all have shared. Carolene, I would like to ask the question and anchor us back into our theme of the conference. I want to know what play looks like in all of your experiences. In Spain, in Japan, in the United States, what has play looked like in schooling for each of you?

Sato Fujiwara:
Play. Hanako had a great trip with her friend. Outside of classes, we have great fun. And actually I’m providing PD to Japanese teachers and ask them what’s the most fun time during when you are a student? And most of them says that’s outside of classes and the class is very structured and disciplined, but outside of class, it’s more relaxed and play. But we have freedom. When you get 12 years old, you can ride on trains and go to see museums and movies with friends. And I really had fun with my friends.

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
Are you talking about a recess, what we do during the recess or just-

Sato Fujiwara:
Sure. Recess or school or any what play looks like.

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
When I was growing up, I was also very active kid, so every recess, we’d go out and play softball and soccer and stuff like that. So like here too.

Isamu Thung:
Yeah, and I would say one of the things that I’ve noticed as I’ve grown in more traditional schools, but also in a project-based learning school, is that when there are projects that are really centered around our curiosities, it definitely feels like play. And just having us go into the field and actually talk to people and actually learn more about communities or do research on our own, it definitely feels a lot like we are learning in a very organic way. And I think teachers that can really cultivate a fun environment for that and it’s completely normal to not know the answers to things and to actually learn more and to talk to other students about those things, I think that has been something that’s really made me feel like, oh wow, school can look totally different than what I’ve been growing up with and was used to.

Ron Berger:
Right. Here at High Tech High, that’s true for you?

Isamu Thung:
Yes, yeah.

Ron Berger:
Not in Japan.

Isamu Thung:
Yeah.

Hanako Fujiwara:
I think in Spain, that was really profound for me and really special because it was the first place that I ever saw how play seemed more important than studying in general. When I went to Spain, I was really worried because I didn’t speak Spanish, I didn’t know what they were talking about, so I was so stressed out that I had to catch up on my studying. So I tried to reach out to teachers after class or during the recess, but they were like, “What are you talking about? It’s not time of studying. You have to go play.”
And I was terrified because I didn’t know when I had to go ask them for advice. But then the teachers told me that you don’t have to worry about studying because what I’m here for, therefore for my exchange year was to see the culture and actually experience the Spanish experience. So they were like, “Chill.” And the people were like that, my whole sister, she got out almost every day with her friends. And as I said before, there were many young kids who had to drop down a grade because of their scores, but no one really cared because even for adults, what was important to them was their personal life and enjoying their lives as actual humans rather than having to sit in front of desks and study. And I think that’s a really important lesson that I learned.

Ron Berger:
Thank you.

Brad Fry:
Hi, my name’s Brad Fry. I’m a school principal from Melbourne, Australia and I feel really lucky to be here right now listening to you. I’m working my way through four countries, seven cities, and asking people about the relationship between student wellbeing and student achievement.
And so I ask the same question to the moms and to the students, but maybe in a different way. “I’m interested to know whether in your school experiences as moms, what you’ve seen your kids go through, whether there appears to you to be any recognition of a relationship between social and emotional wellbeing in kids and student achievement? Whether that’s visible to you as parents, as your kids go through the school? Does there seem to be any link made between those things by the school?” And then to the students, “I’m interested in your view on that same question in a slightly different way. Do you feel that the school offers you any insight into that link for you as people, i.e. simplistically, if you’re happier, you’ll do better?” That’s a very simplistic way of expressing it, but yeah, but I’m really interested in the two ends of that.

Ron Berger:
Anyone can start.

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
I’m not sure if my answer is actually answering your question, but listening to what you’re saying, what came up to me is that I went to very strict private school and middle school, high school in Japan. It’s where before the midterm and final, they would submit these papers, distribute these papers for students to fill out how many hours you’re studying in the entire week leading up to the test. And so it was that kind of atmosphere where it felt like there’s really no space or time to ask questions. When I’m stuck, there’s no one to really talk about, “I don’t get this. Help me.” And I think it comes to the relationship where we didn’t have the relationship where I felt comfortable asking for help even with my parents.
And so looking at Isamu and I have two other sons, both them at High Tech High, and I do think that they feel more comfortable voicing where they’re stuck or “”I don’t like this” or “This is too easy.” All that kind of stuff, they can voice it. And then they can choose not to, but they understand that that’s their choice. They can or they choose not to, but it’s never like, “because I’m afraid” or “because no one would care.” And so there’s this huge amount of trust from my side too that if anything, if I have questions or concerns, I can always reach out and talk about it, which is what I did not experience growing up in Japan.

Isamu Thung:
Yeah. And one observation I’ve made, I think this just goes to all people, which is we definitely, I think, learn better when we’re not forced to do so. And one of the things I think about a lot is if we’re in an environment where we’re teaching kids biology and okay, here’s the process of mitosis and all these facts and figures, sure, maybe our current structures and systems actually make them memorize these things and they actually do well on a test, but what is their associated feeling with that learning and with those facts? And if it is, it was built under a place of stress and pressure and needing to get this right, I just don’t feel like that’s going to be of service of them in the future because they’re always going to have that feeling of this isn’t fun or it wasn’t driven from my curiosity.
And I think it’s often, that’s intangible, you can’t see that, but it’s an association we have in our minds. And I think this goes with all academic disciplines. And I definitely see even at an early age, if you felt like math wasn’t your thing and you had repeated experiences where “This is hard” or “This is tricky” or “I’m not getting this and everyone else is going far so head,” then it definitely affects your ability to grasp onto that later in life. And then already, we are just losing out on so many people who could have thrived there but just weren’t in environments where it was natural to not have all the answers. So I definitely think talking more about that, that intangible associations that happen and how we relate to this experience of learning is something that I have been more attuned to as I’ve been through many different schools.

Hanako Fujiwara:
What comes to mind for me is the classes that I’ve started from last year, which this isn’t common for other Japanese schools, it’s special to my school, but we have this class of media communications and cultural theory, which was the first classes that I’ve ever took that was based on discussion among the students. So we have two classes per week and most of that is based on discussion. We do some reading and we discuss about it.
And that was really stimulating for me. And I felt the enjoyment and a sense of play, like you said before, from doing that because it was the first time that I got to realize that in a sense that there was more to learn from my classmates as well, not just the textbook or the teacher. And I think that’s a really valuable experience to learn to learn from other people and not just the books and textbooks and to be able to say your opinion and to actually get to think and engage with the material in front of me. And that was a really enjoyable experience. And I think the emotional side and the learning side of myself was really fulfilled through that.

Sato Fujiwara:
Our organization have a SEL program, seven months program for teachers. These days, teachers are very, very tired and many living the teacher’s profession in Japan, and that’s a big, big program in Japan. And so our course has the mindfulness and VCs in the forum and journaling, basically. But what we need in Japan is that teachers in a school has to care each other. Teachers has to be cared, definitely to care to kids. So we are trying to build such community, teachers care their colleagues. And I think it’s the same in the United States that sometimes parents are so bad communicating with teachers. And so in that case, teachers can collaborate and I think SEL is very powerful in doing that kind of stuff.

Ron Berger:
And I promised I wouldn’t weigh in, but I am going to anyway, which is to say if we’re looking at the relationship between social emotional health and student achievement, I think it really matters what we mean when we say student achievement. If we have a really narrow definition of student achievement, which is good test scores in the moment, or good academic success, it’s possible to stress out students and still have them do well. So I’ll point out that Hanako, I know you and you took the SATs in English and got amazingly high scores, and yet you have not felt happy with the stress you are under. Etsuko, you were not happy with the stress of your school and you’re so happy with your three boys here at High Tech High, but you went to a great university and were very successful.
If we instead define achievement as having a healthy relationship to learning, having learning that connects and you can use in your life having a good life because of your schooling, then the relationship is a very different thing. So I think the way we often define achievement is “Hanako got great SAT scores, therefore she was high achieving, therefore it worked to stress her out.” And Isamu, you’re pointing out that if that process makes you hate learning and hate studying and hate that subject forever, maybe it wasn’t a really good achievement in that way. And so I think the way we talk about achievement really matters there. Okay, we have time for one more question and then we’ll do closing comments from each of you.

Aaron:
Hi, my name is Aaron and for the past 10 years or so, I’ve served as an elementary school principal here in the San Diego area. And one of the things I’ve noticed quite a bit from our students and our schools is that our students struggle a lot with understanding what community means and what their role in a community might be and maybe we struggle to teach that. And so I wonder, from your varied experience both in the states, in Japan, and in Spain, how that shaped your understanding of what community means and what your role within that community is.

Ron Berger:
Great. Great question. Anyone want to start?

Isamu Thung:
I can start us off. The idea of community is something that has evolved over time. And I think the first time that I really encountered that idea was I was also in a performing arts group, so we did theater and dance and singing. And the thing about dance is you have to make a fool yourself over and over in front of everyone, in front of the mirror, in front of yourself in order to get good at it. And I think that vulnerability, in some ways, really brings you together. And interestingly, that was a lot different, the performing arts group I was in, that feeling of community was a lot different from the community I felt in Japanese school because there, we are almost like everyone’s trying to do the same thing. And the idea of community is like, “We are all trying to be the same. We’re all trying to be studious academics,” or whatever it was.
And when I moved back to America, there was another totally different take on community where it’s like we’re not all trying to be the same because inherently we’re not. There’s just such diverse ideas and backgrounds and people, but it’s in fact, being able to work through that and actually resolve conflicts and collaborate and bring these ideas together into projects or into our learning that symbolized community. So I think there are many different ways to understand it. And I think for me, the greatest experience I’ve had was because of I’ve been through so many different experiences, I’ve been able to formulate my own definitions and understandings about that. And so I think that’s been really helpful for me in also entering new communities such as the deeper learning community or becoming a student ambassador. There are just so many different ways of approaching that. So I don’t think there’s just one understanding, but I think it is definitely informed by a lot of different things, including the culture of the school and the place and stuff like that.

Ron Berger:
Anyone else?

Hanako Fujiwara:
For me, what comes up to mind is the clubs in Japan. And I think when you ask many of Japanese students the same question that you just asked, I think the biggest community experience that people have is with the clubs within the schools that they have. And clubs is a really big part of student life in Japan. Many kids are encouraged to join a club if not obligatory. So they spend five hours per week in their clubs working together on soccer or drawing or whatever. I’m actually in a tea ceremony club, a Japanese tea ceremony club. We make matcha. And in my club, I really feel a sense of community because like the discussion we had earlier, it’s one of the few places where the students get to take charge. And especially in my club it’s really student-led because out of the two days that we have club, one day is run totally by students and the teachers can’t come.
So the students have to take out all the instruments, the tools that we use, which really cost a lot as well. And we teach between each other how to perform the ceremony and we learn from other students as well as we teach other students. So I think it’s just that sense that you’re a part of it and that if you don’t clean up this one thing, then everyone’s going to be late to go home. So you have to do it, but it’s not like a teacher telling you to do it. It’s that because you’re one of the students and one of the members, you’re just going to do it. And I think that’s a really big sense of community and a place where a lot of Japanese students also feel comfortable in. So yeah,

Sato Fujiwara:
Talking about community, our Japanese… How do you say? The curriculum standard. The Japanese government changes are standard every 10 years. And our current curriculum put emphasis on the school committee within social committee. And for example, we have lots of earthquakes in Japan and last year, we had a big earthquake in northern part of Japan. And in that area in one of the schools, the kids interviewed a fisherman there and they started to make a new food product. And then they were so excited to sell the food product to the people in all other parts of Japan. And I found that the relationship with the outside of the school, school community, strengthened the community inside the schools. It’s really fascinating to see the unity within students in the process of doing something new and good. So things are changing and teachers in Japan are struggling to plan those kind of things because teachers or I, don’t have such experience in schools, but they’re trying and I’m so happy to see them struggling and making efforts.

Ron Berger:
Great. And Etsuko last, yeah.

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
This is the final thought that we are sharing?

Ron Berger:
No, just any thoughts on community that you’d want to share.

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
Well, I was actually struggling to come up with what did I think about community when I was growing up. And now that I heard a club, the club was one of the different resources, although I did not have the concept of community when I was student. But as a mom, I definitely feel like I’m a part of the school community. Especially at High Tech High, we have Miss Juliet over here, a middle school teacher. We have a once a month Java with Juliet, or a student meeting, so parents get to talk to the director on constant basis.
And that’s something that I did not experience in Japan. So through using those words even, we are a community and we want you to be part of our community, that message kind of lacking or it was not clear when I was in Japan growing up, or I had kids in Japan. The community was formed informally with mom friends. Once we get to know each other, we make a group chat and stuff like that. And once we have that, we have a way to communicate with each other. But it wasn’t really a formal thing. That’s my experience about community.

Ron Berger:
And before we have you each say one thing in closing, I want to respond something I learned about community from being in Japan and from these four amazing people, which is that there’s one aspect of community that we’re really bad at in America and they’re really good at in Japan. And that’s the part of community which is collective responsibility. So Isamu, you said something amazing to me when I was interviewing you about this question. You said to me, “In America, when something is broken, something is messy, something doesn’t work, kids complain, ‘The school is messy. The school doesn’t work. The system doesn’t work.”, and teachers do the same thing. “The system doesn’t work, the school doesn’t work.” In Japan, when that’s a problem, they’re like, “This is our problem, let’s fix it. This is our community, we’re going to clean it, we’re going to fix it, we’re going to organize it.”
So it’s not that everything is perfect about community in Japan, but there’s a sense that the good of the community comes before anyone’s individual good. And in America, it’s the opposite. People complain if things aren’t perfect, but they don’t think it’s their responsibility. And so a big learning for me from Japanese education is I want that Japanese collective responsibility in our schools because it’s beautiful when it’s there.
Before I have you each say one last thing I want to say, these four amazing people are going to be here for the conference. They’re going to be here tonight at the reception. They’re going to be here tomorrow. They’re going to be here. So it’s not just today. Take time if you’d like to ask more questions and engage with them. And I want to point out that Hanako’s grandmother, Sato’s mother has joined us here today. She came all the way from Japan to see her daughter and her granddaughter, and she’s not fluent in English, but with Miho and with Yuka and with translation, if you want to ask her about her experiences, she’ll be with us too. Thank you for making the trip from Japan for this. Okay. And so any last thoughts you want to give the group? Why don’t we just go down, Etsuko right down to Sato?

Etsuko Tsukagoshi:
Okay. So my son is graduating and I jokingly sometimes lovingly introduce him like, “He’s a troublemaker,” and he is. But what I want to say about that is he pushes boundaries sometimes because he thinks, and correct me if I’m wrong, but for one, it’s that he feels safe to do so in school environment. He has a relationship and he also has high expectations. And when he thinks that something could be better, he can’t not say that. So I’m thinking good trouble. And so I hope that the High Tech High and all the schools remain a place where kids with good intention can cause good trouble.

Isamu Thung:
I love that. I’m good trouble. This conversation, we’re talking about cross-cultural differences, but I actually think one of the things, one universal thing that I’ve noticed in regardless of the country I’m in and regardless of the structure I’m in, is that when teachers teach from a place of wanting to give, whether it’s in Japan or in America, whether it’s a very traditional structure or project-based structure, I always think those are the environments where I feel like I want to learn. And when teachers are trying to get students to do this assignment or look up this thing or whatnot, those are the places where it hasn’t resonated with me. And I think that is something that everyone can take away. So just operating from a place of wanting to give the best experiences, the best learning to students, I think, is what we are all striving for.

Hanako Fujiwara:
From my experiences, I think what is the most valuable, I guess, thing to learn from is just people and like the conference that we’re having right now, just learning from people from other cultures. I got to speak to many people from around the world, around my age during my exchange program, and just knowing that a way of living, a way of thinking exists outside of the world that you already know, is something very valuable and was something very valuable to me. And yeah, I hope you can take that away from our conversation today. And it was really a pleasure to speak to you all. Thank you.

Sato Fujiwara:
Through the discussion between four of us, before that, I thought the Japanese education was really bad. I didn’t see any good things in education. But after the encouragement or some comments, but good side of Japanese education. Now I feel that Japanese education is not that bad. And I think it is very important that you also have very good things in your education system. You might see only the bad side of your education system, but I saw so many stuff when she went to an American school, when she was in elementary school, I saw so many things. Good things and loving things. And so maybe it’s important for all of us to see inside and to see the good side of us. And that’s my learning.

Ron Berger:
Well, one of the great privileges of having worked with High Tech High since it started is that they asked me to host a den and they said, “You can invite anyone you want in the world.” Can you see why I invited these four people? Wow. So thank you so much for joining us for this. And remember, if you have more questions for our guests from Japan, after this, at the reception, tomorrow, please feel free to come up. I really appreciate your great questions. I really appreciate being in dialogue with you about this. Thank you.

Alec Patton:
High Tech High Unboxed. It’s hosted and edited by me, Alec Patton. Our theme music is by Brother Hershel. Huge thanks to Ron Berger and all the panelists for this conversation. You can learn more about their work and more about the Deeper Learning conference by checking out the show notes. Thanks for listening.