UnSuk Zucker: The question is not, "What if I mess up?" It's, "When I mess up, how will I restore the relationship? How will I restore that just relationship with the child, with the family, with those who witnessed it?" Right? So it's not just about what happens between a teacher and my child, it's about what did all those other kids witness as well. Alec Patton: This is High Tech High Unboxed. I'm Alec Patton, and that was the voice of UnSuk Zucker, a partner at Promise54. This episode is a live recording of the Deeper Learning Den Talk that she co-hosted with Sheldon Eakins, founder of the Leading Equity Center, in April 2022. With that, let's get into it. Moderator: So hi, everyone, and welcome to the Deeper Learning Den. We're so happy you're here. The Dens, we have the opposite of Vegas rules, right? What happens in the Den, what you learn in the Den, it does not stay here. We want you to spread it, apply it, do all the things. And today, we have two very special guests. I'm super excited because Sheldon Eakins is somebody who, he has fans in the audience that's already taking pictures, is somebody who you feel like you know because you listen to their podcast and you read their newsletter every week, so you think you know them, but you actually don't know them, and then they're like, "No, you don't know me. Step off." But he is just such a loving and giving leader in the work, and you're going to get to hear from him. And then we also have UnSuk Zucker, who was my equity coach from Promise54 for the past two years. She is brilliant, lovely, compassionate, because, I mean, I require a lot of work and a lot of coaching, and she has so much patience. So let's give them a warm welcome, and they'll tell you a little bit more about their work. Sheldon Eakins: Good morning. How's everybody doing today? All right, right. So I'll start with myself if that's okay, and then I'll have UnSuk share a little bit about herself as well. But I am Dr. Sheldon L. Eakins. You can call me Sheldon. It's totally fine. I live in Idaho. Not from Idaho. No, there are no Black people in Idaho, and we do eat a lot of potatoes. And so I started the podcast once I moved there about a year in because I was dealing with a lot of stuff as a Black man in Idaho, as a parent with Black kids in Idaho, and as a employee who worked with students that were first in their family or would be first in their families to attend a four-year institution. They were dealing with issues, I didn't know how to help them, so four years ago, I said, "You know what? I got to figure out how I can not only help myself, but also help others who might be in similar situations," and so the Leading Equity Podcast started four years now, and we're about 230-something episodes. So if you are into podcasting, feel free to check out the Leading Equity Podcast and the Leading Equity center. So that's what I do. I do a lot of training, I do a lot of workshops, I work with teachers, faculty, I work with counselors, principals, whoever, and support them with the tools and resources necessary to ensure equity at their school. So that's what I do. And again, I live in Idaho, but I'm not from there. I'm from Texas. So UnSuk, why don't you share as well? UnSuk Zucker: So I am from Idaho, no joke, born and raised there. Michelle did not actually plan that. We didn't even realize we had this connection until well into our initial conversation together. So I am from Idaho, and that's actually a big part of my introduction. So I'm Korean American, born and raised in Boise, Idaho. My name is UnSuk. So Un is pronounced somewhere between the short and long vowel U. It means grace or mercy. Suk rhymes with hook or book, and it means dignity. And it has been my own journey to learn to embrace and own my name, which is why I take the time to share how to pronounce it, but also what it means, because for most of my life growing up in Idaho looking like me, I was expected to extend grace and mercy at the expense of my dignity for most of my life, and that is what brings me to the work that I do today. So I spent most of my career in education. So I taught elementary school for 15 years, and it was through schooling that I was exposed to the work of Glenn Singleton, who wrote Courageous Conversations About Race, and I teased him to this day that he turned my life inside out because he was the first person to put words and terminology to my experience that I just had buried and accepted as life. And it was through his work that I realized all the ways in which I was still being asked as an adult to leave huge parts of myself at the door, and then I was pretty mortified when I realized I was also asking kids and parents to do the exact same thing in my classroom because of the ways in which I've been taught to do school. So it was in that moment that I decided that DEI was what I wanted to do with my life. Y'all, be real shocked. No matter where you are in a school district, it's a bit of a fight to make DEI what you want to do with your life. Weird, right? So I went along a little bit of a journey, spent some time in Denver Public Schools and central office, went to another nonprofit where I was the director of DEI before landing here at Promise54. I'm also a mom and a spouse, and that is important to what brings me here today as well. My husband is white, which means we have a biracial son. He presents very Asian at this point in time, and so daily in our house, we have conversations about what does it mean to instill enough confidence in our son to be unapologetically who he is, a biracial rainbow, unicorn, sparkle boy. Those are all the things that he loves, but that also means we have to be careful in the ways in which we try to prepare him for the ways in which the world has and will continue to receive him because of all of those intersections of who he is. So that is a little bit about what brings me here today. So thrilled to spend some time here with Dr. Eakins. Thank you, Michelle, for inviting us. I'm going to pass it over Dr. Eakins. Sheldon Eakins: Sheldon is totally fine. Thank you, though. Michelle, thank you for having us. This is awesome, so I appreciate it. Thanks for listening and reading the newsletter as well. I never know who's listening to that, reading it. All right, let's start with a first question because both of us have kids of color and we are in predominantly white spaces. And I wanted to throw this first one out to you as far as like at what moment did you really start to notice, "You know what? His experiences are going to be a lot different than maybe his peers"? Where was it for you that it kind of was that moment? UnSuk Zucker: Yeah. You know, when we first knew we were expecting our son, I had lots of anxiety about, "Oh, crap, what is this world going to be like for him?" And then I just got caught up in life trying to raise a baby. We are two teachers trying to make ends meet and honestly just sort of slipped our minds, and I went straight into my own assimilation practices, all of the things. And in kindergarten, two things happened. One, a super well-meaning very veteran kindergarten teacher, Lunar New Year was also overlapping with parent-teacher conferences, and she thought it was really funny to share this story that she had all the kids down on the floor pointing at a map of Asia and said, "Colton, where's your mom from? China? Japan?" And he yells, "Idaho. Why?" And while that was a really funny, silly story, it was just a jolt of reality around a perpetual foreigner when it comes to Asian identities, and so that was one sort of slight academic moment. That same year, our son came home unusually quiet and mopey one day, and so we asked him what happened. He said one of his close friends came up to him, pulled the corners of his eyes up, and sort of... in his face. So we asked him what happened, and we were kind of surprised because no one at the aftercare program said a word to us about anything happening. He said, "Well, Ms. So-and-so told him that wasn't okay. And then Justin got mad at me, and now Justin doesn't want to talk to me." And so for us, we felt like that was such a powerful learning moment for him, for both boys. So we went back to school, because it was an aftercare program, asked if we could sit the boys down, and tried to do our best to mediate a more restorative conversation, "Why was that hurtful?" Because at this point, what we know is so many of our white kids just know at a very early age you just don't talk about race. They don't know why, they don't know the harm. They just know we're not supposed to talk about it. And so we mediated a conversation between the two boys, and it ended up being a really powerful conversation, where Justin better understood why it hurt his friend's feelings. My son had the space to be able to share how it had impacted him. But here's where it gets more heartbreaking as a mom and as an educator. So we got home, husband and I are feeling pretty good about ourselves. We're like, "Look what we did." And our son gets home and just falls to the floor and starts sobbing. And, "Buddy, are you still sad about what Justin did?" And he said, "No. I'm afraid I'm going to get in trouble because I made Justin feel bad." And for me, that was such a deep moment where I knew I had sent him deep, deep messages about white peers right to comfort in that moment and the ways in which school reinforces all of that. Michelle knows I'm a crier, so I'm going to get myself together here in a minute. But those are the two moments. What about you, Sheldon? Sheldon Eakins: Wow. I know. So I was a school principal in Oregon for a small Christian school. So when I was recruited to be the principal, I asked him, "Do you have a preschool? Do you have an early childhood program?" Because my daughter was four years old, and as a parent and as a administrator, I wanted to make sure that not only did my daughter have a place to go, but also other families had a place to bring their young children as well. So I go through the process, we become a state-licensed facility, we have early childhood, and I remember maybe a few weeks into school, my daughter comes home from school and says, "Daddy, I want my hair like my friends." She's the only Black girl in the whole school, and she wanted to be able to do the whole thing and shake her head and it just flows. I said, "Baby girl, your hair doesn't grow like that." And you could see her face, she was disappointed. But she really wanted her hair just like her friends, and her mom and I, we put braids in her hair from then on, four years old, and literally for the rest of her time, and she's 11 now, she just cut her hair. But she's always had hair that as close as we could get for her, right? And she just keeps it. We just redo it every six weeks or so. But that was that moment for me because it's one thing that we talk about skin color and we talk about those different things, and I work with early childhood folks and they tell me, "Oh, it's too soon. We can't talk about race with four years old and five years old. That's not something that we should do." But I'm like, "The kids can tell that there's differences." And it's totally fine. There's nothing wrong with saying, "You know what? My skin color is different." I remember watching Dr. Beverly Tatum's... She has not a YouTube, but TED Talk where it's like, "Is my skin dark because I drink chocolate milk?" And she talks about her experience with her son, and I remember watching that video and just really being able to relate to that because I'm like, "Yeah, we think about just skin color and all that, just taboo." "We can't talk about... They're too young." And I said, "Well, we teach kids different colors. We teach them what red looks like, and blue, and brown, and all these things. Why can't we talk about melanin and talk about what that looks like and how darker-skinned folks have more melanin?" And that was the moment for me where I was like, "Yo, if this is the type of experiences she's going to have at four years old, this is not going to stop." And so now when my daughter comes home, and she knows what I do, right? She knows that I'm an equity dude and I do training. Every so often, she says, "Daddy, go to the school and talk to my teachers." "Well, what happened, baby girl?" And she'll tell me what happened. Or sometimes she'll just say, "Daddy, what can I say?" This is what happened. She's like, "I have a girl in my class, and every time we talk about Africa, we talk about anything Black-related, the girl always says, 'Well, you look just like them,' or, 'Is that you or is that your cousin?'" These are the type of things she's experiencing. "How do I respond to that?" And so I give her talking points and I tell her, "Say this to your classmate," and I'm at a place these days where I don't care, so it's like, "Say this back to them, put it back on them, and if you get in trouble, don't worry, daddy got your back. But I want you to say this." So my daughter's pretty militant these days, but she's not... But again, as a parent, as someone that does a lot of this work, I want to help her to feel empowered because, guess what, a teacher's not going to always be there in the classroom or overhear something. She need to be able to fend for herself because she's sometimes the only person of color, but most of the time, I would say 98% of the time, she's the only Black girl in her grade sometimes in her school, like these type of things are her experiences that she has. So that was from four years old all the way until now, and she's in sixth grade right now, and I just constantly, I'm just helping her be able to have, again, the terminology and language. So let me ask you this question, all right? And thank you for sharing, and I know it's tough sometimes to share these type of experiences, especially with people we don't know, right? And we're having an intimate conversation, but there's folks listening. I want to know this because now that your son is getting older. What type of things would you like teachers, like what message would you give to teachers who are, maybe they have predominantly white students in their classrooms or maybe whatever their demographics look like, but for folks that maybe have biracial kids in their class, what type of message would you want to help teachers know? UnSuk Zucker: That's a great question. It makes me think of a couple of things. I think one, on the technical side, is it's okay to talk about race. In fact, it's appropriate to talk about race. We talk about social-emotional. I think about all of the programs that we have that we are teaching our kids it's okay to talk about our feelings. The reality is, all of us, every single one of us have identities that we have deeply, deeply tied attached emotions and feelings to, and so why are we asking our kids to compartmentalize, diminish, and cover parts of their identity, particularly when it completely shapes how they navigate the world? So I think there's the technical piece of like, "It's okay." I think the adaptive piece is what's hardest. I spent 15 years in the classroom, 10 of those years was before I became a parent, and I took real offense when people would tell me, "You're not a parent," and now I am a parent and I'm like, "Oh, I shall eat my words." But the reason I'm saying that is because on the adaptive side, what I want most for all of the educators that come across our family and all families is that the question is not, "What if I mess up?" It's, "When I mess up, how will I restore the relationship? How will I restore that just relationship with the child, with the family, with those who witnessed it?" Right? So it's not just about what happens between a teacher and my child. It's about what did all those other kids witness as well. And I think it's important for kids to see, one, adults can't apologize, should apologize. Y'all, we mess up all the time. And when it comes to race identity, it's so important to model that discomfort and to lean into it. We've had several conversations at the school level, at the district level. The one thing about me is I cry a lot. I kind of pretend like I'm shy, but I'm not. I'm kind of a pain in the butt, and the district has figured that out. And the last thing I want to hear is, "Oh, yeah, but that leader did a whole book study on Courageous Conversations About Race. That leader went to Zaretta Hammond's conference." That actually makes it worse. They went and did all the training and they're still messing up and now they're defending it. That actually makes it worse. So I think that those are the two things. Technically, it's okay, you can and should talk, and it's not if harm is caused, it's when harm is caused because we are not good at these conversations. How do we reestablish that relationship? Sheldon Eakins: Thank you. I have a lot. I was trying to think of how do I want to break this down in a short period of time. For me, so I get a lot, "Well, we only had two kids of color," or, "We only have three." And I always say, "Well, what was the threshold? Did you need five? How many did you need for them to matter, for them to feel valued, like it was worth your time?" And so again, just going back to my daughter's situation and my son's situation, where normally, they're either the only ones that are of color or they're just a handful, and again, I always try to say, "You could have had..." I mean, again, February just passed. February just passed, not one thing I saw Black history at their school. February's not even over. We're talking February 20th, St. Patrick's Day all over the place, green everything. I'm like, "You couldn't even let the month finish." I'm just asking for one thing, right? And I've gone to the school and I've talked to the teachers about that. I'm like, and I'm not a big fan of tokenized holidays and stuff, but, "Dang, I can't get one, one thing beyond Dr. King's Had a Dream and Rosa Park sat in front of the bus? I want more than that. My kids aren't learning these things." And again, it's always, "Well, we didn't have enough," or, "Oh, we thought you were going to come in." I'm like, "I don't like elementary teaching. That's not my thing. I tried it second grade. I did second grade once, once and only once. That will never happen. I'm not tying shoes all day. I can't deal with tattle telling. I don't like it. It's not my thing. And it's not my responsibility as a parent to come in, take time off of work, put a lesson plan together, deal with your discipline, and all this. I don't want to do that stuff. Now, I'm happy to help. You know what I do." They know what I do. And I'm like, "I won't charge. I just want to help," right? And it's just like, I don't know if I come across too abrasive or whatever, but I'm like, "I want the best because it not just benefits my child, but it also benefits the school and it benefits the entire class." Because again, these kids aren't getting a lot of experience with people of color, but they might end up working in spaces, on a team, and there's all these different diversity of thought, and it's helpful at a early age to learn these things so that if they do become police officers, or if they do become attorneys, or I don't know, paramedics, medical staff, and these kind of things, they have a little bit of understanding and experience and it's not just the preconceived notions or stereotypes that they might be experienced. So my thing is always it doesn't matter how many, if you've got one kid, and even if you have no kids, I still think we're doing our students a disservice if we have a full classroom of white students if we're not teaching them about various perspectives, multiple stories, and all these type of things. We shouldn't limit it to, "Oh, there was a quota." And I always say, "Well, how many did you need? When did it matter?" But I think a lot of it is just a cop out and it's like, "Oh, I'm afraid, I'm uncomfortable talking about these things, and as a result, I'm just going to use an excuse to avoid these conversations." How we looking on time, by the way, Michelle? We're ready for Q&A? Okay. Did you want me... Okay. So we have some time for some questions and answers, so if anybody has anything that they would like to bring up, I think we're small enough that you probably don't need a microphone, but feel free to raise your hand if you have something that you want to ask us. UnSuk Zucker: Use your best teacher voices. Sheldon Eakins: Yeah. It's a brave space, by the way, brave space. Alec Patton: Hey, Alec here. The question from the audience was, what reasons for hope or positive developments are you seeing? Sheldon Eakins: I was trying to think positive spaces. You know, some of the things I've seen is I see a lot more schools are recognizing... I mean, for example, it's not just like our kids of color and LGBTQ+, but we're seeing a lot more new Americans coming in, and so I'm seeing a lot more schools trying to figure out how to embrace our new Americans that are coming in when it comes to making them feel welcomed, a sense of belonging, not othered. Sometimes we ask our new students to come in and tell us about life in whatever country, and the kids maybe dealt with a lot of trauma, and so they're not really just wanting to rehash those experiences, but sometimes that's where we go to. It's like, "Oh, tell me about your country and what's happening." Well, that's not necessarily a conversation that they're ready for. But I do see a lot more schools, classroom teachers and people were reaching out and saying, "Hey, what are some things that I can do to support families that are coming in?" Because it's not just the students that are dealing with stuff, but also their parents, whose professions aren't always honored. They were doctors and had a prestigious status in their country, home country, and then they come over here and it's almost like they're starting over. So just families as a whole, just trying to embrace that. What about you, UnSuk? UnSuk Zucker: Yeah, I think for me, I'm just going to name the elephant in the room, and anything race-related, I mean at this point, anything related is shoved under the CRT bus, right? So I am encouraged that even in our local school district that is considered fairly conservative, we're not backing down. We are trying to make clear what CRT is, why it is important. One, we don't teach CRT in elementary school, and two, why it's important that we stay committed to talking about race to having those conversations. I think as a side note, I have deeply appreciated sort of what feels like a tipping point, at least in our local school district, around more white folks taking on the responsibility of doing their own learning. So historically when I was there, it was a lot of, "Hey, Sheldon, can I say this thing?" "Hey, Sheldon, can you tell me what's it like to be Black?" And then they might come to me. I was in a school where there was one Black woman, one Asian woman. We were just automatically assigned to the equity committee because where else would we go? And there are lots of weird side whispery conversations. And I have seen a bit of a shift of, "Hey, did some reading. This is my understanding. Do you have time and energy to sort of pulse-check how I'm thinking about this?" One, even that shift of permission, "Do I have permission to ask of your energy," feels different, and two, just sort of seeing more white folks just take on more of the responsibility of doing their learning, not on the shoulders of their peers. You have Google, books. There's lots of white folks out there you can talk and do your own processing with, and I'm seeing that happen. Sheldon Eakins: Any other questions? Speaker 5: First of all, thank you. I'm a crier, too, and I make no apologies about it. I don't think that we have enough spaces to share these experiences. My son is eight, and he's in his fourth school for the very stories that you just shared, and I go hard in the paint at every school I've ever taught at and led, and so it's a struggle internally on a regular basis like, "How do I do this and get this for my child?" Something you said in the conversation that you had with your son and the restorative, and with your daughter, which it breaks my heart that my mom had to prepare me as a little Black girl and I have to prepare my son as a little Black boy how to navigate this country, where other parents that don't have Black children don't have to have those conversations with their children. Can you speak to resources or starting points to the restoration or how to engage the dialogue or to advocate for that type of discussion with children at a younger age? I'm already seeing trauma and he's eight, and now I'm hustling trying to get back, and I see it in the high schoolers on my campus. So I think for many of us, a starting point is something that would be a beautiful thing because sometimes people think that we're so far here or the damage is so done. Where do we go or how do we catch up? So can you speak to some advocacy, some organizations that are advocating for this, some points where teachers, educators, or leaders can kind of go to our organizations to partner with to get this, even if we start at the micro level and work our way? Sheldon Eakins: For me, the first thing that came to mind was Learning for Justice. So if you haven't gone to the website Learning for Justice, they used to be Teaching Tolerance, and so now they've changed their name. Book recommendations, I'm a big fan of Dr. Beverly Tatum's work, so Why All the Black Kids in the Back of the Cafeteria. I'm probably butchering the title. Lisa Delpit's Other People's Children is also another good book as well. Those are the resources off the top of my head. If you can connect with other community members that are similar in identity and just kind of having those conversations, I think one of the advantages, for example myself, I'm an educator and I do this kind of work, so it's very easy for me to talk, right? But your son might have some classmates, some other boys or some girls that are in similar situations, and maybe talking to the parents as well. I'm a big proponent on advocacy. It's like it's one thing for me to help my daughter out and give her that language, but if there's other parents, like if there are parents at my daughter's school who have adopted kids of color, I want to be able to support them as well so that they know how to help their children as well. So not just keeping it to ourselves, but also supporting other families who are in similar situations as well. UnSuk Zucker: I think the other thing I would add is as I talk to school leaders and school systems across the country, there are quite a few mental health supports and restorative justice practices. And also, anecdotally, I hear mental health supports most often being associated with LGBTQ issues. That is real. I'm not minimizing for one second the challenges of our LGBTQ+ students. And also, it is fascinating to me that there seems to be an invisible line drawn where race issues are literally just sort of talked about as race issues, and the mental health challenges of our kids of color, the complex PTSD of being exposed and re-exposed all day every day is overlooked. So I think an opportunity is to continue to push those who are leading mental health supports in school systems to make that intersection, make that crossover, because it's so important. And it just sort of speaks to, under the surface, deep under the surface, the continuation of the dehumanization of people of color in this country, the fact that we talk about race issues as a thing and not about the deep trauma and the emotions that are associated with it. So I just feel like that's really important to name. How's that for a non-answer? Michelle knows I'm really good at non-answers. Speaker 6: Hi. I just want to say thank you for your time and energy. This is awesome. But as a first-year young educator, I just want to ask for advice on how to navigate this conversation with maybe my older colleagues or older parents, because sometimes that's hard, they don't seem to trust you. But what advice can you give to someone like me? UnSuk Zucker: So a couple of things. One, as a first-year teacher, make sure you keep your mask on, your oxygen mask, when you need it, because we need you to stay in the field, and if you don't take care of yourself, you're not going to be able to stay in the field. So that's first and foremost. And often as teachers, taking care of ourselves feels really selfish and it feels counterintuitive to why we go into the field, which is why I said that first. I think the second thing is, I don't know about you all, but when I was a first-year teacher, first few years teaching, I was sort of seen as the cute little puppy who didn't know anything. And so there's levels of credibility that sometimes have to be established that can be frustrating and can be really insulting, quite frankly. So for what it's worth, at the risk of sounding manipulative, because I'm not trying to be, but sometimes when we have these conversations, especially with older educators who might sort of feel like they know better or they have created and formed their perspectives over the years and then confirmed those biases along the way, inquiry questions can be really helpful, anything from, "Can you tell me what you intended by X, Y, Z?" Depending on your relationship, if you have a strong enough relationship, "Hey, when you said X, I think you meant this." Name the presumed positive intention. "And people, I and I imagine others, may have taken it this way, and here's why it's harmful." To just sort of engage in that conversation. And all those things that I said at the beginning of my answer are real. They may or may not hear it, but at the very least, you're establishing your perspective, you're sharing your perspective. You can't do anything about whether or not they receive it and/or how they receive it, but you can at least engage in that conversation. That's my thought. What about you? Sheldon Eakins: That you answered exactly how I would've answered. The only thing I would add to that is- UnSuk Zucker: We've known each other for like 24 hours. We're besties. Sheldon Eakins: We're like connected. We're connected. The only thing I would add to that is, another way to approach it is to share with your own story, start off with a little bit of vulnerability on your own end. So what I do sometimes in these types of situation is like, "You know what? The other day, I just kind of remembered a time when I was in high school and I did this and I made this mistake. It kind of reminded me of what I saw this morning when I was in your classroom. There's something, it just kind of reminded me of that," and then kind of open up, "Is it okay if we talk about that? Can we just chat?" That way, you're starting off. Again, a lot of folks, what happens is we come at people, they feel the defensive, I didn't mean it that way, we're in impact versus intent type of situation, and they shut down, they don't want to hear anything that you have to say. But if you start off by sharing your own story first, "Hey, this happened to me six years ago," or, "While I was in college," or, "While I was doing my student teaching," or whatever, "I remember this experience. It reminded me of something that I saw," or, "It reminded me of something I heard you say to a child," or whatever it is, right? You can relate them that way and then open up the conversation would be another approach to have. I also encourage, especially those who are in positions where they're on a equity team or they're on some sort of a committee or something like that, that you can get your students involved as well. We forget the power of student voice sometimes. We think, "Well, what can I do? What can I do?" But your students can do a lot more. They're not going to get fired, right? They're not going to get demoted and none of those. Those things aren't going to happen to them, so utilizing their voice, finding those leaders, finding those folks who are willing to speak up and speak out and helping them guide them and mentor them as an adult, as someone, and say, "You know what? Here, I'm going to help you put a set of five slides together for your PowerPoint. You can present this to the administration." Right? You can help them do that stuff, and then it's there, they have more buy-in, they have ownership, and like I said, they have a much louder voice than you probably would have or feel that you would have as a beginning teacher. UnSuk Zucker: The only thing I would add to that is, our personal stories can be incredibly powerful. And particularly for educators of color, take inventory. Do you have the time and energy? What do you feel like you want to invest in that conversation? Stories can be some of the most powerful ways to enter into that conversation on a human level, and they're exhausting. And so I remember hearing a question one day, overhearing a question. A white participant had asked a participant of color to share their experience. And the participant of color responded, "Before I answer your question, I need to know what are you going to do with my story in your mouth?" And that has always stuck with me. "Why do you have the right to my pain? Why do you have the right to my story?" And so I do my best to assess the situation the best that I can because I firmly believe that storytelling is one of the most powerful ways to engage in these conversations. And also, y'all, sometimes I'm tired, I am angry, I am hurt, and sometimes you just don't get access to my story in your mouth. Sheldon Eakins: Mic drop. Speaker 7: You're speaking to something that I've been feeling, because I grew up in a very diverse elementary school, high school. I've had white friends, Jewish friends, I've answered all the questions about my hair, and I've been doing that my whole life and- UnSuk Zucker: Bless you. Speaker 7: ... and I work in a district that's probably 80% Black and lots of white teachers who work in my district, and quite frankly, I am feeling exhausted by having to explain my story, having to explain why it's important, and I just wonder, how do you deal with that? I mean, I know I just can't stop, but it's just like, "Really, this is where we are in 2022? Really?" And I watched the confirmation hearings last week, and that got me all fired up all over again. So how do you deal with that and keep a positive attitude and fight the good fight? UnSuk Zucker: Well, Michelle and Mari will tell you I don't always keep a positive attitude. So that's real talk. So a couple of things. I think one, doing your best to find some form of affinity group, and depending on how diverse a access you have. I say some form of affinity group because I have yet to find an actual AAPI affinity group that I've been a part of. I am often the one and lonely even in a people of color affinity group. And also, there's still a level of comfort, relief, and weight being lifted off being in a space of just people of color, so if you have access, whether formal or informal, find your people, whoever they might be, where you can take your mask off, where you can exhale for a minute. And I think there's also what I just said, there's no magic formula for when you tell your story and when you don't. I think that's up to you. And I think I have had to grow my language, I still get it wrong often, but, "Hey, I really appreciate that you're coming to me and asking me. It shows me that it's important to you. I personally don't have the energy right now. Can you come back to me at another time?" For me, that delays enough so that I can figure out when I'm ready to, or I might even phrase it as like, "Can I get back to you when I feel like I'm in a place to engage in this conversation?" That doesn't always go over well. And I'd be lying if I didn't tell y'all, what I didn't name is, I, my whole life, has used gender as a proxy for acceptance because I was never going to be white, but I have worked real hard to be a good girl because that has sort of bought me some level of acceptance. And I bring that up because even having boundaries, even saying, "I don't have the energy for you," there's like a deep internal scream that I am letting somebody down, that I'm disappointing someone, that I'm not doing what I'm "supposed to do," and I've gotten too close to many breakdowns at this point to do that all the time. It's not easy. I still have internal turmoil every time I say no. But ultimately, I do believe now that I have a story to tell and that it's important, but I can't tell it if I'm too exhausted. See, another non-answer. There you go. Sheldon Eakins: You literally said exactly... So I'll just add to it, all right? I'll just add to it because okay, I'm a Black man that lives in Idaho, I'm an educator. Ain't no other Black people for me to talk to. So what I normally do is I'm very active socially on social networks. I'm a part of like Black male educator groups. Like for example, I've been connected with a lot of people virtually. For example, David Adams back there, this is the first time him and I have met together in person, but David and I, we've known each other for multiple years. We've worked on projects, we've been on panels together, he's been on my show. There's a lot of things that we've done together. But being able to just, before we hit record or after I hit stop on a podcast interview, and just, "Hey, how are you doing? Here's the situation I'm dealing with." I used to be very private, and I'm still a very private person, but I've become more open to sharing a little bit about myself. Like I was sharing with UnSuk yesterday some very, very personal stuff that's happened in my life. We just met, right? But I felt like she created a space for me to feel very comfortable with talking. David was there as well, and I shared a lot of stuff that I wouldn't just tell everybody. But that was very helpful for me, and they thanked me for my time and for opening up. So I feel like if you can find other people that are, like you're not the only person that's dealing with whatever you're dealing with. Like you said, I can relate, right? Those type of things are happening to other people. But that has really helped me, is just to stay focused. Because when you're in a position where this is literally all I do is talk about race, talk about equity, talk about diversity, inclusion, this is all I do 24/7, so I take heat, I take pushback, I get all kind of crap that gets thrown at me. So just for me to maintain my sanity is just being able to talk to other people that do either similar work or have a lot of similar shared experiences and keeping up with them, whether I get to see them in person or not, but being able to stay connected, phone calls, text messages, Zoom calls, these kind of things, and it don't always have to be about venting sessions and about us, "Oh, man, let me tell you what happened today." Right? It doesn't always have to be that way. Sometimes it's just like, "What'd y'all watch? Did you catch the game? Did you catch the Oscars the other night? Did you see the slap?" These are the type of things- UnSuk Zucker: Did something happen? Sheldon Eakins: "Did you see the slap?" Right? So we can have these kind of conversations. It doesn't have to be on race and all that, but it's just being able to have an affinity space that has been very helpful for me. Moderator: Oh my gosh, y'all are going to hate me because I have to close this conversation. But the Unboxed media team, Alec, where are you at? Alec Patton: Right here. Moderator: There's so much more that we need to learn from these beautiful humans, so I'm wondering if we can set up like another podcast? We got to make this happen. Give a round of applause for Dr. Sheldon Eakins, Dr. Sheldon Eakins, and UnSuk Zucker because we learned so much. Thank you so much for your time. Alec Patton: High Tech High Unboxed is hosted and edited by me, Alec Patton. Our theme music is by Brother Herschel. Huge thanks to UnSuk Zucker and Sheldon Eakins for co-hosting this Den Talk. You can find links to Promise54, the Leading Equity Center, and the Deeper Learning Conference in our show notes. Thanks for listening.