Aysha Upchurch:
I don’t think it’s anti-intellectual or anti-rigorous to have fun.
I don’t think community is antithetical to success. I think actually it depends on your ability to stay tapped into that essential nugget. And I feel like as an artist and someone who’s like, I can’t run away from being an artist, it keeps me plugged into let me whatever I’m doing, can I be a conduit to help us get back to seeing each other?
And so also I’m like, my dad got kicked out of two PWIs for advocating for the rights of black students and black faculty. So also I can’t be so shooketh by these institutions to ignore they’re gifts inside of me that can honor what he did, but also help everyone just literally sit in circles and recognize each other’s humanity. And so again, I think I’m just trying to keep my roots.
Alec Patton:
This is High Tech High Unboxed, I’m Alec Patton, and that was the voice of Aysha Upchurch, plus a little bit from Enrique Lugo. This episode is a recording of a conversation that Aysha and Enrique had at the 2024 Deeper Learning conference, about bringing their whole selves as artists into school. I was right there in the room where it happened, I love this conversation, and if you listen closely you’ll even hear the question I asked right near the end.
Here’s Dr. Michelle Pledger, in the room at the time, hosting, to introduce it.
Michelle Pledger:
So today, you are here at this den because you want to hear the conversation between these two beautiful humans. We have the lovely founder of HipHopEX, also known as the Dancing Diplomat, Aysha Upchurch. So let’s give her a round of applause. And then we have my dear friend and my graphic artist for all things. He did the cover of my book, the cover of my podcast. I want him to graphic design my whole life, but he’s also the Dean of Culture at High-Tech High Chula Vista. And we know him as Chikle, but his government name is Enrique Lugo. So let’s give it up for a round of applause.
Enrique Lugo:
Thank you.
Michelle Pledger:
And so with the den, just in case there are any first timers, the way it works is Aysha and Chikle will have a conversation for about 25 minutes. And it’s just like we’re eavesdropping on their conversation. We don’t know what they’re going to ask each other, what they’re going to talk about. And we’re just listening in. After 25 minutes, I’ll signal them that it’s time to transition to Q&A and then I’ll come around with the mic and you can ask whatever questions that you want.
And then we reserve the last five minutes for them to share any final words for the audience. And our rules here are opposite of Vegas rules. So what happens in the den, what’s learned in the den, what’s shared in the den, all of the insights we want you to take that, share it widely in your context for people who weren’t able to be here so they can get all of that learning too. All right, let’s give one more round of applause for our beautiful speakers. Yeah, take it away.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah.
Aysha Upchurch:
You know what’s wild is like we really just heard those instructions for the first time and we’re so excited that Michelle knows what’s happening because we were just going to talk and we don’t know if anyone would’ve been involved. No, I’m just kidding. Yeah, so this is great. This is our second date. It’s awesome. I think it’s feeling, how are you feeling about it so far?
Enrique Lugo:
It’s been going good.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Enrique Lugo:
Met each other for the first time yesterday.
Aysha Upchurch:
We ate tacos on our first date. Tacos are supposed to not be first date food, but here we are.
Enrique Lugo:
Oh, I didn’t know that.
Aysha Upchurch:
Right? Get messy in front of people. I was like, ooh, dropping sauce is fine. So I feel like what we were talking about, we named this session something. Do you know what the name of this session is?
Enrique Lugo:
It was about creativity and leadership, and how we merge that mindset into what we do on a day to day.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah. And I think in our talking, we were in the spirit of Jay-Z. It’s important that we reintroduce ourselves like with self for self, where we get away from defining ourselves by what we do, and really who’s the essence? So I’m going to just on this here podcast, I’m going to use my podcast voice. So Chikle, let’s allow you to reintroduce yourself. Who are you?
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. So I’m a San Diego native, born and raised here. Only time I spent away was to go away for college. Something that in my group of friends I was the only one to go and has allowed me to live a life that I never dreamed of. Education, and in particular, being an assistant principal, aka dean of culture, is not something that I ever considered for myself.
I loved art always in San Diego. I would argue that San Diego in the nineties when I was a teenager had the best graffiti. Obviously, I’m biased-
Aysha Upchurch:
Don’t fight your words.
Enrique Lugo:
Obviously I’m biased. And that was the thing I loved art, making t-shirts. I’m a screen printer, so I’m an artist, screen printer, graphic designer. I’m a dad. My son’s in the back playing a video game and an educator. So there’s so many layers to who we are, and that’s part of what we were talking about yesterday, of all the things that we bring to our work. Tell us about yourself.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah, so I am, I like to say I’m a seed planter. I’m a soil agitator. I’m a curious and passionate artist and educator. I’m a joy ambassador. I’m the recess president, energy DJ. I just try to show up. I’m someone that tries to show up and be a conduit for joy, for liberation. I think of myself as the two-step whisperer. I really believe I can get anybody to dance on beat. But you know you got to pay for my services ’cause that is a lot of time put in. And even probably more importantly, I’m the fourth born to Marsha, Denise Washington and William Donald Upchurch from the north side of St. Louis. And being forth… Hey, oh wow, that is a rare woo. 314 shown up in the building. Never get to say that and back. Okay. And being fourth born really, I think is so critical to who I am and how I navigate the world because looking at what my older brother and two older sisters did and just having to naturally be like the do what your siblings are doing, go where they are.
I’m just always there, the extra person doing all the things and not in a burdensome way, but it was very natural to be around older, still younger, but older kids. But then also around auntie’s, grandma’s, people I didn’t share blood with, but I thought were blood cousins. And I think that really identify really names rather how I identify as an educator. So any title can be affixed to my name or removed, but I’m still that girl who lives and thrives in community who doesn’t know the world without music, dance, chanting, laughter, double-Dutch. I don’t have it on me here in San Diego, but I am known to whip out a double-Dutch rope.
Enrique Lugo:
Oh wow.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah, listen. Anyway, that’s for a whole different podcast. But that’s who I am. I love being in intergenerational spaces. I love joy, I love games, I love play. That is how we learn. And yeah, that’s who I am.
Enrique Lugo:
I love that. And I think being, so I mentioned I’m a San Diego native, but my parents crossed the border in the sixties. My dad, Jose Luis, who came over with a little piece of paper that said, looking for work. He didn’t speak English, cruised up and down Harbor Drive.
So for those of you that are here for the first time, or if you visited Harbor Drive is the road where the airport is. If you take that all the way south, you hit pretty much National City. So he came over with that piece of paper and he shares a story of walking into spaces or businesses and people laughing, people making comments, and I’m like all the opposite of that. I would never, I won’t say never, but I don’t think I would’ve done that or had the courage to just put myself in such a vulnerable situation. My mom, Elia is from Tijuana. So growing up, I thought I was Mexican because I crossed the border multiple times a week, spent time with family, cousins, big, big family. But I’m like the youngest or second youngest on both sides of my family. So my sister who’s 10 years older is really the only reason I went to college because she did. And she’s 10 years older, so she’s almost like a second mom to me.
But she looked out for me, made sure that my mom put me in preschool, made sure that I took care of my grades, and then ultimately told me, you’re going to college, period. So I went, but I still didn’t know what I wanted to do or who I wanted to be other than enjoying art, music, live music. And I think being in community, as you were saying, is something that’s a really big part of who I am and what I try to bring to school with me. So as a classroom teacher, that was a big part of, we were talking about this space, which is typically set up in a circle. My room was always that. And because of the tables or the furniture I had, it was a rectangle, but everyone was facing in and seeing each other. There’s something really unique about that.
Aysha Upchurch:
Oh yeah. I feel that ’cause I think if there were chapters or track titles to my life, if my life were an EP, either the EP is called Cypher is Life or it’s the title track, I don’t know. But when you grow up youngest, my brother is 10 years older than me, then my sister’s eight years, and then there’s one that’s four older, but the eight-year-old sister felt like junior mama.
And in my little girl math, my brother just seemed bigger than any human I had met. And then as I got older, I don’t understand math a lot, because I’m a dancer and I count to eight and start back over. But then I was like, he’s 10 years older than me, that means he’s old. I just thought he was the oldest person. So I say that because growing up, if I’m always, I’m six, I’m inherently around 16-year-olds. If I’m eight, I’m around 18-year-olds. If I’m 10 and I’m around 20-year-olds. And that inter-generationality felt so natural and a lot of what we did was in the circle playing outside.
Growing up in St. Louis, I’m really… Thank you for sharing about your parents. My mom’s an artist, singer, dancer. My dad was an activist and we had a community of all the play cousins and aunties and uncles. And we would celebrate being black. And so I also don’t know the world not being proud to be black. I don’t leave that part of my identity to be policed or minimized by any system or structure.
And it’s just in games we would play like there’s a chant that we would sing called my people, my people, what kind of people, talking about black people. Just to sing that as a kid with aunties and cousins and uncles and everybody is like, it’s joy to celebrate who we are. And we are growing up in these games and in drum circles, everything, you’re able to see everyone. So when I step into a classroom having taught from what I call ankle biters because they feel closer to my ankles than my forehead. From ankle biters to aunties, I always put the room in a circle because again, it’s all about I think coming back home to the things that make you feel the most humanized and held and heard. And it’s incredibly noteworthy to me, someone who’s taught graduate students and undergraduate students, the power of K-12 restrictive education that’s so desk in front, face the teacher, I put a circle of chairs and taxpaying adult students are like, what?
So I play games with them where I try to remove myself from the circle and they’re still trying to perform their knowledge to me and craning their heads around to attract me. I’m like, the community is right there. Talk with each other. That is how we build. And I think so much about growing up in those West African traditions of dance and singing and then in hip-hop, that for me is a natural, that’s so formative to how I’m able to see and navigate the world that physically organizing spaces into a cypher, but then also thinking around how to invite knowledge metaphorically into a cypher and leadership positions. I’m like, I’m just trying to stay true to my roots no matter the title or the position or the place. We’re supposed to be in community and share that power. So it’s funny to me how simple it seems like. I don’t feel like that’s really like whoa, that’s so radically creative. You have us sitting in a circle and we feel held. I’m like dang.
Enrique Lugo:
But it’s what we were talking about yesterday as well with compliance. We’re raised to be compliant and do things as to the letter of the instructions. And it’s funny you mentioned we just heard the instructions for right now, that’s how we’re wired. And one thing that I’ve been embracing more and more in my fifth year as a dean is the idea that we need to model those expectations for not only our students but the adults as well because most of our adults attended traditional public schools that were about sit, be quiet, take notes, listen, and then memorize, and then give it all back to me on a test or a quiz, whereas we learn in community, we learn through experience, we learn through exchanges. And helping folks be comfortable with that is huge.
Aysha Upchurch:
It’s huge. And it could all be so simple. No, the Reverend Lauryn Hill.
Enrique Lugo:
That’s right. Yes.
Aysha Upchurch:
Thank you for those who picked that up. I think it all could be so simple. And I think also the notion of art, I think also and how we’re surrounded by it. For me, I think it’s simple ’cause I don’t know the world without it. Grow up, you going outside, even if we don’t call it art, you’ve been a sing, dance, mimic, step, clap, try to imitate. And that’s a natural way of connecting. And I think about the power of returning to that simple truth of we are creatives. The creator creates to its own nature. So whatever you call it, like we were talking yesterday or whoever you call it, we come from a creator. So it would violate the constitution of being a human to not create or tap into your creative power because it was always there. And it’s just so simple to come back to that, simple to come back to that but work of unlearning and the undoing.
So I feel like James Baldwin talks about what’s the role of an artist? And as a black woman, I identify very proudly whether that identity is assumed upon me. I do take it again because I just know the world, being proud of being black and black. I’m woman. And I think creating art from where I come from, it’s about trying to get us back to the simple thing of looking at each other and laughing and playing. Be like, well, what you got? What you know? Okay, somebody step in a circle. Oh a, that is powerful. I don’t think it’s anti-intellectual or anti-rigorous to have fun.
I don’t think community is antithetical to success. I think actually it depends on your ability to stay tapped into that essential nugget. And I feel like as an artist and someone who’s like, I can’t run away from being an artist, it keeps me plugged into let me whatever I’m doing, can I be a conduit to help us get back to seeing each other?
And so also I’m like, my dad got kicked out of two PWIs for advocating for the rights of black students and black faculty. So also I can’t be so shooketh by these institutions to ignore they’re gifts inside of me that can honor what he did, but also help everyone just literally sit in circles and recognize each other’s humanity. And so again, I think I’m just trying to keep my roots.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. I remember something you said about helping young people feel held in the space. So seeing each other and really acknowledging we’re all here together, right? In essence, we’re a reflection of one another. And how do we tap into that when we’re dealing with each other as colleagues, but also engaging with our students and really recognizing who they are and what they bring with them to this space.
And I know that currently it’s a very different time for young people with technology and post-pandemic life. But our ability to just connect in that way as human beings, understanding that some people are a little bit younger and we need to be a little more patient. And maybe more so than I think in my role, that’s been really the thing that I’m trying to move towards is bringing myself my authentic self. So even though you said don’t come in all your padre gear, I did. This is who I am.
Aysha Upchurch:
I was kidding. I was like, please wear as much padre gear as possible.
Enrique Lugo:
But yesterday when I asked, I was mentioning that when I became a dean, I went shopping and bought-
Aysha Upchurch:
You bought dean clothes?
Enrique Lugo:
The dean clothes, right. The collared shirt, the ties. And then I remembered, and I did a podcast actually for Unboxed about when I started working as an academic coach and I would wear my flannels, my cuffed 501s, that’s just who I, like the style that I like. And a kid told me, “Hey, no one dresses like that here.” And it was a kid that I was trying to support. So that was my way in. After a few weeks in the role and doing some things that, I called a kid out after school and I was actually here my first year as a dean. My first four years as a dean were here. I was outside, it was the end of the school day and a kid curses. So I went over as the dean, like, “Hey, watch your language.” Trying to lecture a kid after school. In that exchange-
Aysha Upchurch:
He’s like, we are off the clock, first of all.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. So I didn’t think anything of it. I’m just the dean. So I have to, in my mind, it ruined the relationship with that kid to the point that it wasn’t until June, this is the first week of school.
Aysha Upchurch:
Oh like a whole year.
Enrique Lugo:
So a whole year to repair that. And throughout that year, I realized that I don’t need to call every little thing out. There’s some things that I cuss here and there. It’s okay, it happens. But the positionality of me as a dean. And so from then on, it’s been a journey of I’m not just the dean. So I changed my title from dean of students to dean of culture. And I talk about discipline, not as discipline, but as support for students and really shifting all the language that we use and saying it to the adults in the room because then it starts to trickle down to the kids and it really is being creative.
Aysha Upchurch:
Absolutely. Because I would say again, that C word that you brought up earlier, compliance, it makes me wonder as an artist, how do you situate compliance in relation to your creed? Like you shaking nah, your nah is real vocal.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. But that’s funny though because as a visual artist, I have friends who cannot paint any other way than they were taught. And I don’t know if that’s right or wrong, but I’ve always had a, like, I don’t like to be restrained. I like to go for it and I think that’s been my approach to life is just go for it, see if it works, dope. If it doesn’t, we regroup and go back to it. And that’s how we learn, that’s how we get better, that’s how we evolve. With critical feedback and as an artist, you’re used to that.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah. I mean listen, if I can’t… Here’s why Cypher is Life, again, my upcoming EP to be released. I’m not a vocal artist in any way or form. But for me anyway, and I think being so informed by hip hop culture, compliance, it’s not it. It’s not it. I got to be able to get into the cypher. I got to be able to deal with the A’s or the awkward silence because I am not on the level where the cypher is and do I know how to switch up and get back into the pocket with it? If anything, I think that is about your ear and your whole sensorial full body ear to read and feel the room, and again, community.
And so the rules of the cypher because there are, they’re not meant to be a code of compliance, but it’s really a code to invoke more sense of community and meaning I don’t just showboat in the middle and do me, for me, it’s like I say cyphers have to be I for we. So I get better if we get better, we get better if I want to get better by being in community with you. So I think about, well, I was telling you about the fifth grade classroom that I taught in DC that was primarily young boys. And so you can imagine the retail therapy that I tried to engage in because these young boys already were able to vocalize very clearly that the school gives up on them, polices them. They’re like, they just send us to the office.
And I was like, I will not be another black body in this school that’s just thought of as the disciplinarian auntie. I’m not here for that. And so I’m going to be creative even in an environment that is saying, just get these kids to be quiet. I’m like, it’s a dance class. I’m going to need some energy and trust that I know how to work with them when they’re having more of an alien day than their best human day. We all have a alien day. I got some days I’m like, Aysha, you need to try all the way over. But the resilience to go, these children are not used to having their identities supported here. I’m going to try to be creative with even how I set up the classroom norms and values so that their humanity is centered.
These little bodies are already used to being policed by the age of 10 and they look like me. How are we going to act? I’m not about to police another black body. No. Again, my got kicked out of two institutions that didn’t look like him. So I think about, I look at creativity as a welcomed outlet against compliance that’s just about follow the rule, get these people to be productive. Even in faculty meetings. Do we have to run a meeting that way? How come all meetings don’t start with music and a dance break?
We probably all been sitting too long, butt cheeks all clenched and everything. Everybody needs to shake them chakras. That’s just the fact. We probably going to do a chakras shake here in a minute. But just thinking about because, but that doesn’t look like productive professional behavior. Well, you know what? It’s worked out for me. I get paid to make things up and everybody’s happy. And so again, thinking about the tension between creativity or the relationship between creativity and compliance, I’m like, if I don’t, I trust myself as an artist. I don’t turn that off when I need to be in the educator shoes, which are the same. They’re the same shoes. I teach and I dance and I walk in life in the same ones literally and metaphorically. So I love hearing how your practice as a visual artist is like, yeah, but I got to experiment and see what all the color can I make.
It’s like, yeah, I got to see, I ruined… the relationship is more important with the student if I show up as my authentic self—padre gear, the cuffed 501s to be very-
Enrique Lugo:
Yes, please.
Aysha Upchurch:
Precise. Okay. Yeah, yeah.
Enrique Lugo:
I think all of that and something you said about celebrating our students’ identity and I think more importantly, acknowledging who they are, who show up as because because that’s authentically who they are. And I think sometimes that gets hard when we’re, all the words you’re using, policing them, asking them to be compliant to our rules. And I think even when we set up norms, do we take the time to define the language? Like what does respect mean?
And something that I learned from a mentor here in San Diego, Macedonio Arteaga, who does a lot of restorative work. And one thing that he said to me is like “Respect, it looks different for all of us.” And he’s like, “I dealt with a situation where a teacher felt disrespected by the student and the student said some choice words that they shouldn’t have.” But then when he spoke with the student, the student felt disrespected by the adult because of a comment the adult had made. And so then when he sat them both together and they were able to express, this is what respect means to me and when you said this as my teacher, I felt some kind of way and the teacher was able to realize and acknowledge ultimately they made a poor choice of language. And I think even that modeling, what does it look like to have these difficult conversations where sometimes as adults we should always apologize to students, you lose nothing when you do that, you gain everything because they see you as a human being who also makes mistakes and can acknowledge that.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah.
Michelle Pledger:
Let’s give these two beautiful humans a round of applause. This is excellent. And just to be clear, I sent the instructions out four times. I know they keep saying that I didn’t. Y’all know me.
Aysha Upchurch:
She did.
Michelle Pledger:
I sent them out. But they’re so creative-
Aysha Upchurch:
It look like compliance.
Michelle Pledger:
Yeah, just kidding which I totally get.
Enrique Lugo:
We were just making a point.
Michelle Pledger:
But we were going to now just move into Q&A and so just raise your hand. I’ll bring the mic over to you and we’ll get this going.
Enrique Lugo:
She did, huh?
Michelle Pledger:
Thank you.
Speaker 5:
I was feeling like an eager beaver. Thank you both so much. I really appreciate learning from you. My question is for you, Aysha, I really appreciate you sharing how celebrating yourself through the lens of celebrating blackness was such a dominant part of your childhood and current experience. As a mixed person, that was not part of my experience. And in fact, don’t sit on my coffee. And there was actually more implicit messages like don’t talk black, don’t look black, don’t act black.
Assimilation was key. And so there’s a lot of healing happening in my adulthood. And I’m curious, you called yourself a seed planter and the thing that came out of this conversation for me was this concept of healing. It feels so healing to hear this, right? So I’m curious, in your work as you navigate this world, how you’re seeing healing rise from it and what words you may have for those of us who are still healing internalized racial violence.
Aysha Upchurch:
First of all, thank you for sharing that and offering that. And my disclaimer is, I am expert on one thing and one thing only in that is being Aysha Upchurch. And I even still need to phone a friend and would appreciate a 3D printed version to solve some of the crises that come along with that. I’ll say in college, I had a professor who was an older white gentleman who identified as a tax resistor and a pacifist and an activist. And he was so clear about naming his identity, the positionality, and the problematic power he’s afforded. And for me, because I never thought about school robbing me of being proud of being black, that was a moment for me to go like, oh, everybody has to do work to name who they are, to call it out. And this person who looked completely opposite for me was somehow actually, also, and all the stuff that happened in my home neighborhood was really formative in me thinking about what happens when I’m in the front of the classroom?
I need to be able to stand up in front of my students and have a clear articulation of who I am for my own continuing affirmation and I also want to call out that it’s a potentially huge eclipsing element, right? Because I don’t want to also say that I know what every experience as a black woman is, but I do want to own that this is how I name who I am and hoping that that can encourage folks to be able to name who they are. There’s a quote that I won’t try to go verbatim, but I believe it’s, is it Maxine Greene? No, no, no. It’s Adrian Gil… No, not that. Adrian gilbert. Okay. Anyway, I didn’t say this, but y’all can Google the words, psychic disequilibrium. No, I’m not going to spell those, although I was a spelling bee champ. But she says, “Psychic disequilibrium happens when the power…” Like you know who you are and how you name yourself, but other systems or people won’t do it.
And it causes this thing to make you think, well, am I even who I dare to say I am? And so a lot of the practice in that healing, I will say is like every day I have to assure myself who I am. I have a morning meditation routine that is mine. I will not take a call, I will not do a meeting before I’ve done what I need to do to make sure that I’m not being as much as possible unintentionally poisonous because we’ve all grown up in this system that will try to minimize the fullness of who we are. Because I’m like, if a white man could be so real about what his whiteness has done and the problem with that, then I had better know that I can have take up every space to talk about the pride in who I am as a black woman.
And I want students who are brown, who are mixed race, who are whoever, to know that at least in my space, who you are is fully enough. And to say that. So I say all of that to encourage folks to whatever the work we do behind the scenes, there should be work behind the scenes for all of us to make sure that we can recover and author the narrative of who we are away from the harm of all of the isms because that’s going to pour out of our skin and hopefully be support for any type of healing journey.
Speaker 5:
Thanks to you.
Alejandro:
My question is for Chikle. I’m Cuban. I came from Cuba at the age of 15 man, and I’m a teacher. I also wanted to be an admin five years ago. So I started working on my PhD/ throughout my whole life, I graduated from Uconn. My whole life I’ve been told that I needed to be less ghetto.
That was the big thing, right? In Connecticut, you needed to be less ghetto. My college professor came to me and I said, “How can I be a better teacher?” And his answer was, “Be less ghetto, talk less ghetto. Stop being less ghetto. That’s when you become a better teacher.” It’s not so much of a question as a thank you that I want to give you guys, because every time I come to these event and I see you guys being your authentic self, it makes me realize that I’m in the right path.
And regardless of whatever it is man, hey, you look at me and you probably walk across the street because I’m a huge guy that dress like this, you know what I mean? But I have a PhD, you know what I’m saying? On my way to get that PhD and be a principal. But I always thought, man, I don’t fit into the… I’ve been fighting with that mental battle. I don’t fit into what everybody expect for a principal to look like. All the kids in my school want to come to me to the point where I feel even some of the admin get jealous and be like, “Hey, don’t spend so much time. Don’t be so close to your kids. You need to relax. Don’t take so many chances. You’re taking way too many chances.” But I know that the kids come to me because I speak to them in a different way, different language.
Enrique Lugo:
You speak to them.
Alejandro:
My way. That’s right. So seeing you like this man, the way you dress, this is me, you know what I mean? I’m an art teacher too. I do graphic design, I do murals. And the way that I became an artist was because I used to be part of a gang. I used to be part of the Latin Kings in New York.
Enrique Lugo:
Oh, wow.
Alejandro:
And you got to get out of that life. I live in the project, so you have to choose what your poison was, right? I didn’t want to get beat up every day after school, so I had to do what I had to do, you know what I’m saying? But only real people know what I’m talking about. So having the chance to go to school, get away from all of that and having a different perspective is so wonderful because I bring that different perspective into school.
I did murals, I did graffiti, all those things. That’s how I got into it. But it’s so nice because I feel, and for the past five years, like I said, it’s been a battle because in one side you hear people telling you, this is how I want you to dress, this is how I want you to look. And man, I swear to God, I could dress up really nice too and wear all this stuff, but it’s not me. It’s not me, you know what I’m saying? It’s just not me. I’ve done it and it doesn’t feel like me. I feel good. This Jordan’s on, hat on, this is me. This is my culture. So seeing you doing this and being part of the admin, dude, that just makes me want to push forward. So thank you so much.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. You have to. Thank you.
Michelle Pledger:
Alejandro about to make me cry. Oh my gosh.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah.
Michelle Pledger:
All right. We’re going to talk later. You might be on the den stage next year.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah, as an admin.
Michelle Pledger:
Just got to exchange information. All right, who’s next? Yeah. St. Louis. Sorry.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah.
Speaker 7:
Hey, I’m Eric. Thanks so much for everything that you’ve shared. One thing that stuck with me is when Aysha, you said you talked about the cypher as a way that we might think about it in terms of rules that are not about compliance, but about support.
And I’m curious, in both of your work as artists, are there other spaces, structures, ways of being that feel similarly as maybe lending spaces of support and presenting a way of thinking about rules, for lack of a better word, of being together but not in compliance?
Aysha Upchurch:
I mean, in a really delightful way, I feel like it’s becomes really difficult to try to bifurcate life as artists, life as educator. I rarely introduce myself with any title or affiliation because I’m a legion to the United States of Aysha. It’s a lot, Aysha Upchurch incorporated. There’s a lot of stakeholders just right there, me, myself, and I. But I say that because if I think about the practice of cyphering, if we think about it, it’s indigenous, it predates all of these western constructs of how learning should happen or how peopling should happen. And so I find that in spaces, whether it’s in faculty meetings and leadership meetings, in administrative spaces, listening as if I’m in a cypher. In a movement, cypher is helpful because in a cypher you can’t just be like, I got these bars or I got these eight counts that I want to dance, and I thought about them last night and I’m only thinking about them and I’m just going to do them.
It’s like you’re not actually listening and that’s violent, that is disruptive, that’s harmful. So I think about the way that for me, cyphers life shows up and how I even work with colleagues. I might not like the steps that they are doing literally or metaphorically, but my job is not to cut them off because I think that hurts other people’s learning. You just still have to say, I don’t like it, but can I still listen in love?
Is there a bigger goal that we share in where, okay, maybe you didn’t like what I said or you didn’t like my idea or you didn’t like my agenda item? I just think about again, how cyphering for me is really a whole ethos. I’m trying to my best embody. But particularly in the classroom, I feel like I’m about to put my auntie hat on for 22 seconds, not to be ageist, adultist, or what have you, but it’s undeniable that the way that I grew up and the time and place and the way that we are from is it’s less communal first. You can be engaged in a whole world and know a lot of people from the comfort of your phone.
And folks, I’m working with college students right now and I’m astounded like they don’t know, their instinct isn’t to look at each other for support, but they’re trying to get off and do their thing but just stand in a circle and be able to step in support each other, even supporting each other vocally is like, oh. And so I think about, I really feel like through, whether it’s in a lecture class or a dance course or a meeting, I’m just trying to help people come back to looking at each other. That’s the goal. And it permeates through all parts of my life.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah, I agree. I think the idea of listening, asking more questions. And for me, I think where I found success as an educator was in feedback. And I think I was comfortable with that because as an artist, I received feedback whether I wanted it or not.
People told me how they felt about my art or my ideas. As a teacher, I embraced that because I knew that that was going to help me get to my next level. And so for me as a teacher and borrowing from other colleagues, as someone in the back of the room, Nuvia created this beautiful feedback, critical feedback structure where it made it comfortable and it made it specific. And at High Tech High we talk about kind, specific and helpful feedback and maybe is universal not unique to High Tech High, but that’s where I learned it. But these ideas of oftentimes feedback becomes so personal in our feelings or emotions. How do we bring it back to be specific to the work? So as a community setting that norm of what are we talking about and then speaking to that versus the person. And I think, again, going back to where we started, it’s actually pretty simple.
It’s just things that we’ve never been taught or things that have never been modeled for us by our adults in our household or in our classrooms when we were their age. And I think for me, that’s the other rule I tried to live by is to remember when I was in that seat. And as a father, I’m in that mode of like, damn, how did my parents feel? Or a conversation today that I had with my son, Damien, of this is how I tried to get one by a grandma. And I laughed when you said this earlier today because I was like, oh damn, we really are a reflection of each other. So it’s moments like that where we focus on the human in front of us and really celebrate them.
Speaker 8:
Hey, thank you both so much. I want to know, Chikle, you mentioned the nineties graffiti scene of San Diego, which people might be unfamiliar with more widely. So you can go there or you can go somewhere else. It’s a question for both of you. Who’s somebody who’s an artist defined broadly, any field, who’s really influenced you, who just more people should know about?
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah.
Aysha Upchurch:
Ooh, that is so good. You should go first Chikle.
Enrique Lugo:
For me, it’s my dad because my dad, like I said, he came here with, honestly, I need to ask him why and I know why for opportunity in a better “life”. But he is the spirit of just go for it, right? He didn’t go… I mean, he has an education up to sixth grade in Guadalajara in Mexico, came to Tijuana when he was 16. He was working since he was a kid, selling kites and water on the soccer field. This dude is a hustler, right?
But he also, he’s so charismatic that even today with his broken English, he walks into a room. If y’all met him, he’s walking out with you as a friend. And so I grew up seeing him paint in our kitchen, which is funny because my wife and I paint in our dining room and he’s the first artist I knew and who encouraged me without any real education as an artist or training as an artist. He just went for it and did what he did. So I would love for y’all to meet him. If you ever come back to San Diego, please reach out and we’ll do a little carne asada so you can see him. That would be my answer.
Aysha Upchurch:
Oh yeah. Since I heard the question, but being the Pisces and creative than I’m going to respond with more than one ’cause I just can’t. I laugh because I become more and more of my mother and it’s all her fault ’cause she’s involved in music and theater and you just look back in the theater, the little kid in the back playing. But nobody ever explained the world of being a professional artist to me. So understanding that did not come until much later. And I think there are a few folks who had indelible marks on me because of how they do not hide that they are artists and the world that opened up for them. So I do feel like if James Baldwin and Nina Simone had had some weird affair, I’d be their child. It’s okay, don’t worry about it. That’s on the podcast, Aysha.
Okay. I got nothing to hide. It’s my truth. There’s a dance company called Urban Bush Woman, and I saw them dance when I was 23 in it. And I shortly thereafter saw Rennie Harris and it changed my life as a dark-skinned black girl who never had hair that was cascading down nobody’s back, who has an athletic bill that was policed by my ballet teacher earlier in life though I could out-turn everybody, my body was critiqued and criticized and policed as a girl who was born with her feet almost completely turned in and bow legs to the point that they wanted to break and reset.
Dance beyond what I knew was healing my relationship with my body ’cause I always felt completely whole and grounded. But it’s the outside world that’s like your hair ain’t long enough, your nose too wide, you too dark. And trying to put a black-skinned girl in pink tights when she’s growing up, it does something to you when you’re in the Western performance world as a little chocolate girl and you’re like, this makeup don’t work, these tights don’t work. I still have blush-phobia, if that’s a word we can create. And I’m in my mid-forties and that’s how long that lasted. So when I was 23 and I skipped a rehearsal to go see Urban Bush Women because I think my spirit needed to let me know that there are women who look like you and it is a company of predominantly of women of color who are in every different shape and size, hair every which way and they are gorgeous, and they are beautiful. And the dance was legible to me.
I was like this movement that my body has known to do and that has such a huge impression on me where I was like, I think I have to stop having this thing be a hobby. I think it is my conduit. I think I can do it. And Jennifer Archibald is the last person I mentioned. She’s about a six-foot tall, black mixed-race woman from Canada. And I had an experience working with her and I had never met anyone who was so on fire for what they did. She demanded that you care without being mean, it just poured out of her. And she’s like, “You could do this Aysha.” It wasn’t solicited, but I think something she recognized that I was at this moment, I need to dance as my primary conduit. And I quit my job in education and went into dance full time.
Kids don’t do that necessarily. But I say all of that because if I think about what success means, we’re talking a little bit about that. Success is like is there alignment between your passion and how you live, what you do, blah, blah, blah. I’m saying how you live. And those folks were the embodiment of alignment. They didn’t try to hide their bodies, they didn’t try to hide their art form. And they’ve been able to reach people beyond traditional learning. And so for me, these artists who are in bodies that the world police, which is again why I cannot police, I can’t be a police of bodies. I experienced that. I just unlocked the world of possibility for me. And so I try to honor what those folks have poured into me without even knowing that it is okay to take up the space that I’m in and the body that I’m in, I’m here to do that. And so that was a long response, but it’s my truest response.
Enrique Lugo:
Can I… While you get to the next one, that idea of success, the opening keynote, I know hopefully y’all were there. There was a comment that was made about success often looks like by the distance you place between who you are or where you were raised and how far away from that you go. And I think hearing you talk about that, what does success look like and who is success and why? I think that’s so important that we redefine what that looks like. And I think too, the question of who are some folks that people should know about is even looking in this room, there’s folks in here that we need to know, and that’s true in all of your spaces is there’s people in the room who you might not actually know what their story is, where they come from, what they’re doing, and asking those questions as well. That’s success.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah.
Michelle Pledger:
I think these will be our last two. [inaudible 00:49:16] Last two.
Speaker 9:
Hey, thank you so much. So I’ll try to get to a question, but what I’ve been honing in as I’m taking notes is this idea of creativity. And to get to where I want to arrive at, I’m taking notes around creativity as a leader to me means as spontaneity with developed and responsive intentionality. And I’m wondering, as a leader in a building, in a community, in a classroom, the thoughtfulness that goes into promoting, putting forth ideas, how that has impacted where you are, what you do, speaking as somebody that sometimes spits out too many ideas, but also wanting to encourage more ideas and that artist’s approach where we have an idea going into something. You might even think of your fixed materials or mindset or whatever you had in mind, and then you have a blank canvas, or with dance, you have an idea that you’re going to start out with, but you haven’t started dancing yet.
But the moment you put your first step or you put your first color down, then you’re going. And where you end up might not be where you originally thought. And I guess to bring it back into a school, is there intentional promotion of staff ideas, what it means to change or transform the culture? We talked about staff meetings, how a school schedule is, how we give and receive feedback between admin and teachers. These are big ideas that I think as artists, I feel fortunate that I can look at them from multiple different angles and I also want to bring that from other people. And I’m wondering how that plays out for you.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah.
Aysha Upchurch:
Listen, as a performer, as a choreographer and a performer, every piece ain’t it even if I put it on stage, but I need the process. It took me three years to get one piece right, but I didn’t get it right in rehearsal. I have to put it on stage. Dancers give feedback, what have you. I say that gives me my performer artist identity. I’m thankful that I don’t displace it as unimportant to my life as a human because it gives me the gift of I have a high threshold for non-resolved, for unresolved. I have a high threshold for understanding that evolution is inevitable, our idea mindset around changing habits so that evolution can happen. I have a high threshold for like this is going to take some time, but I also, because of cyphering, I go, I get it. Some people not quite understanding the flow of the music. And as much as I want to jump in and take the needle off the record and be like, yo, it’s this way I also know… Sorry.
Enrique Lugo:
Compliance.
Aysha Upchurch:
Personality just jumped out there. Sorry, friends. I also know I am thankful that my artistic practice has gifted me completely unremovable thresholds and tolerances and mindsets even around what it means to navigate change in a system. I’ve designed, I’ve helped co-design a graduate program at one of the most “elite institutions” on the planet. I’ve developed courses and projects that didn’t exist in spaces that didn’t think that it could exist. And that is because I understand that inevitably experimentation and ideation has to live out. It is not meant to be just an intellectual activity, it has to be practiced. Sometimes it’s going to be a hot mess, but it has to have a hot mess. Getting people to understand that in the climate of education from K-12 to higher ed, unfortunately those systems are not built with a threshold of tolerance for time as time actually happens.
So that is the dissonance to cheer and cultivate patience inside of a system that is obsessed with microwave results that are unrealistic. So that’s where just trying to not necessarily lose sight of what the big idea is. I think we have to keep our eyes on that, but also go, this is going, it should be.
It’s like I can legit, if there’s turbulence on a plane, it makes sense we’re traveling through a weather system. If there ain’t no weather system, like wait, well, hold, hold, hold, this pilot isn’t competent, right? But if we can understand there’s going to be, we have to condition our muscles that creativity and collaboration, they don’t just sound beautiful, but they are processes when working in systems that are going to invite us to go, can you get your threshold for non-resolution up? Can you go train that muscle a little bit? Can you discipline your ear to sit in the cypher and be like, Ooh, that person ain’t quite on beat yet, but they’re going to get there. They’re going to get there, or do you know how to join them in the circle. Again, for me it’s like I don’t separate them because I am so glad that I can bring my artistic practice into leadership positions. Yeah.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. I think all of that, and I would just add embracing the disruption or helping adults unlearn things and empowering them more than ever to be able to pivot. And I think even for our students who have dreams and aspirations for them to be okay with, perhaps something changes, they change, they evolve and pursue a different path because sometimes our young people feel like if they don’t achieve what they said they were going to achieve, then it’s failure.
So how do we remove that pressure even from our colleagues in the classrooms of if things don’t go as you planned, it’s okay. What can you take away from that and then pivot to the next thing. So really about empowering our colleagues, our teachers, our teams, and then our students to be comfortable with sometimes things don’t work out or things happen and how do we address that? How do we… Someone earlier mentioned healing. I think it really is about us healing as humans because there’s been so much that’s been happening and not like it just started happening. It’s been happening, but somehow now it’s at the forefront in a conversation that we’re all having about all human beings. Embrace that space and truly though, make the time to work with your teams to empower one another so that then they could do the work with the kids.
Michelle Pledger:
Okay, this will be a really brief question, a really brief response. And then the final words or just go for it ’cause y’all are creative. You can reject the rules. I’ll set a timer.
Usman:
How’s it going? Thank you both for your time. My name is Usman, I’m a poet and I’m also a Mass Poetry’s board chair. And being in this administrative role has just added so much depth to my relationship with poetry, but at the same time, I haven’t had a chance to be in the classroom as much as I would like. So even at this conference when I was doing a workshop, so much fun. So my main question is, how has your relationship with your art changed over time and where do you see that going?
Aysha Upchurch:
Like Mass as in Massachusetts?
Usman:
Yep. Massachusetts.
Aysha Upchurch:
Yeah. I just left there. I know exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good scene. Anyway. Okay. I’ll say this is a beautiful question because again, I don’t separate the two, so that means I also have to leave open, can my art learn from this other side? And cypher is life transforming classrooms into communities. I like to do a little challenge with myself like how quickly can I help coach a space to shift from being transactional to being humanizing and transformative on my classrooms to feel like a cookout every day?
Also, there’s always food in my classrooms because the pedagogy of hunger and biology actually rules the world. Okay, so I say that because now my artwork is shifting from I’m okay with theater, proscenium, performances, but the work and the process has become so much more about collaborative processes with the performers. And I actually want to do more theater stage work, but put it into communal spaces to engage people where they are and to make theater and dance and art with the community because I do believe it’s healing. So in trying to transition transactional faculty meetings into, can we have an agenda but also be human? I’m like, can the theater actually come back, particularly to communities of color? Can it not just be entertainment, but can we reclaim the power that it innately has to heal us for us? So it’s, I’m coming back home again. Homecoming is another track of my EP. I’m coming back home to community.
Enrique Lugo:
The single. Yeah, I think for me the same. It’s evolved from when I first started in 2004 as a professional artist in a gallery setting. But I’ve embraced it and I left a little souvenir for you all on your chairs. But the idea, the visual aspect of art and the messages it could share, the conversations they could spark, I’m really taking that and running with it. My space that most people call an office, I call a gallery and I have art by professional artists as well as student artists that I’ve had over the years.
So really showing up as everything that I am, everything that I love. So like low rider culture, things that in past times were, we don’t talk about that because those are all gang members. That’s not true. It’s about identity and expression, just like music. So there’s a speaker in my office always playing music. I try to be mindful of the language. But everything, yeah, I try to bring it into everything. And as you mentioned, I think my relationship with art is also my therapy. So as Aysha mentioned, her morning routine for me is creating art. If I’m not creating, if I’m not drawing, if I’m not coming up with something and I don’t feel whole. So going out into the community, painting, doing events, vending, try to keep myself busy. So yeah, it’s there alive.
Michelle Pledger:
All right. And now you both have 60 seconds to share any final parting words or something else.
Aysha Upchurch:
So I have a mantra that I developed. I just moved to Texas and I relearned the importance of hydration because, damn, that’s just the devil breathing on you in August. So because I felt like I was also about to die, I was like, oh, I got to hydrate, baby. We got to hydrate. We got to what? We got to hydrate. So what I would like to do is impart my motto with everyone in my last 15 seconds. If you would not mind standing or doing what you want to do, I’m going to stand. But repeat after me. Hydrate.
Speaker 4:
Hydrate.
Aysha Upchurch:
Booty shake.
Michelle Pledger:
Booty shake.
Aysha Upchurch:
And do something that brings you joy.
Michelle Pledger:
And do something that brings you joy.
Aysha Upchurch:
Now take eight counts to booty shake or shake it out, or do something that’s joyful in your body. Hydrate with joy, hydrate with joy. Yes. That’s my TED talk.Okay. Hydrate, booty shake. And do something that brings you joy. And double points if hydrating while booty shaking is your joy.
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah. Nice.
Aysha Upchurch:
Can you print that on something?
Enrique Lugo:
Yeah, yeah. I got you, I got you. Yeah, I would say just follow your instincts. You all chose this path for a reason. It’s intentional that you’re here in this space even with us. So thank you for choosing our TED talk today. Thank you for coming to San Diego and participating. I think so continue on that. And yesterday, we were talking to someone from Chicago actually, and Nuvia asked them three words to talk.
Describe your experience so far. And the first thing this colleague said was, “Affirmative.” So hopefully throughout these three days you’re taking something back that you know, yes, follow that path. Become an administrator, come back and do this den talk. That’s what we all need, right? We need to see more people like us talking about what it looks like to be in these spaces ’cause I would’ve never imagined I, rest in peace, but I disliked my vice principal in high school, really bad. I try to be all the opposite of that and I shared a story like that. I was exactly him the first week in the role. So just follow your instincts, be an amazing human being that you already are, and reach out if y’all ever need anything.
Aysha Upchurch:
Aysha for sure.
Michelle Pledger:
Let’s give Aysha and Chikle one more round of applause.
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